Israel assaults Iran, pounds Lebanon, Hezbollah

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When was the last war that took place that didn't involve collateral damage? You either don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that there is a difference between targeting civilians (wrong) and targeting militants with civilians sometimes being caught in the crosshairs. The first action is terrorism and the second is legitimate warfare.
If you don't see the irony in your post, I don't know what to tell you. You choose to ignore that Israel is targeting civilians because you blindly support them. There are countless examples and videos of them targeting civilians. Yet again, you only count it as terrorism from one side. Imagine if Palestinians killed around 20,000 Israeli children. That's basically a Dean Dome amount of children.
 
If you don't see the irony in your post, I don't know what to tell you. You choose to ignore that Israel is targeting civilians because you blindly support them. There are countless examples and videos of them targeting civilians. Yet again, you only count it as terrorism from one side. Imagine if Palestinians killed around 20,000 Israeli children. That's basically a Dean Dome amount of children.
I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.
 
I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.
Now, maybe. Too much bad blood. Otoh, if 40 years ago, Hamas had had anything like a modern army, Israel would have backed off. You somehow seem to miss that Israel has been able to take them over for a half century or more and could have forced this to a conclusion. Why they have drawn this out and created such misery for both sides is beyond me. I don't know if it's idiocy or evil. The other side isn't a lot better. If there is any mitigation, it's that you can take young poor males with no worldly experience, not much hope for the future and an out of whack male to female ratio and teach them to hate anything.
 
I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.
Instances?? Lol
Again, 20,000 children killed. How many instances are we talking about?? Is their aim that bad?
 
Then they should have done it fifteen years ago or longer. They could have won this war any time they wanted to. They just didn't want to deal with public opinion so they've been boiling a frog. We learned to accept this grotesque situation. You've learned to cheer for it. I've learned to not associate Israel and Judaism and to not respect either side of this ongoing atrocious behavior on both sides.

Now, what do you see as the end game and how does this achieve it? I said this the other day. What they are doing is like abusing an animal over and over and expecting to make friends later. Are you anticipating putting them down like you know would happen to that animal?
Not sure there is any hope of an end game. I see continued suffering of the innocent. Pain. War. Death. For all sides.
 
Now, maybe. Too much bad blood. Otoh, if 40 years ago, Hamas had had anything like a modern army, Israel would have backed off. You somehow seem to miss that Israel has been able to take them over for a half century or more and could have forced this to a conclusion. Why they have drawn this out and created such misery for both sides is beyond me. I don't know if it's idiocy or evil. The other side isn't a lot better. If there is any mitigation, it's that you can take young poor males with no worldly experience, not much hope for the future and an out of whack male to female ratio and teach them to hate anything.

Yup, I am reading a great book right now about Jimmy Carter and the Camp David summit with Sadat and Begin. This issue should have been solved a couple of generations ago but it hasn't been. I don't particularly like either side but Israel's values align much more with our own than Hamas's. Israel is a democracy and Hamas is an Islamofascist terror group. We largely have the same values and the same enemies. That doesn't give Israel a carte blanche but it does make them the lesser of two evils by a wide margin in my book. We can't change the past but we can shape the future.
 
Agreed. They should use their bombs on the settlers. They are criminals in my view. But it wouldn't matter. The cycle is set. Their enemies want them dead. Gone. Removed. They offered Gaza, Judea and Samaria and got turned down. The time for peace passed then. They will have to fight this out until the end.
What does that mean? Genocide? Permanent displacement? You just don’t GAF?
 
Instances?? Lol
Again, 20,000 children killed. How many instances are we talking about?? Is their aim that bad?
We're talking warfare in a dense urban environment in which Hamas intentionally uses women and children as human shields in order to inflate the death toll as high as they can get it. Horrible for the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.
 
Not sure there is any hope of an end game. I see continued suffering of the innocent. Pain. War. Death. For all sides.
How can almost any ending be worse than that? How can any person really take sides in this debacle? If nothing else, tell Israel "No mas" and let them know they are on their own with the UN. That would sooth me a bit. I feel like an accomplice before the fact . It sucks worse that we aren't getting a single thing out of it and are hurting ourselves with other nations.
 
Yup, I am reading a great book right now about Jimmy Carter and the Camp David summit with Sadat and Begin. This issue should have been solved a couple of generations ago but it hasn't been. I don't particularly like either side but Israel's values align much more with our own than Hamas's. Israel is a democracy and Hamas is an Islamofascist terror group. We largely have the same values and the same enemies. That doesn't give Israel a carte blanche but it does make them the lesser of two evils by a wide margin in my book. We can't change the past but we can shape the future.
With Bibi in charge, they are about as much a democracy as Russia and there's damned few values I share with that asshole.
 
We're talking warfare in a dense urban environment in which Hamas intentionally uses women and children as human shields in order to inflate the death toll as high as they can get it. Horrible for the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.
How dare they shield themselves with children who are sleeping in their own homes, in schools, and in tents! :rolleyes:

If Israel cared about human life, they wouldn’t be demolishing city blocks to supposedly get a couple Hamas members. They wouldn’t be sniping children and using drones to kill unarmed civilians and then posting it on Telegram to gloat about it. Or killing men in the West Bank and then taking their bodies on top of building to throw them off the buildings. These are not isolated incidents.
 
When was the last war that took place that didn't involve collateral damage? You either don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that there is a difference between targeting civilians (wrong) and targeting militants with civilians sometimes being caught in the crosshairs. The first action is terrorism and the second is legitimate warfare.
Clearly, there is a line somewhere. If you drop a bomb that you know will kill 1 million people and at least 1 terrorist, do you believe that is morally superior to dropping a bomb that just kills a million people?
 
They will have to fight this out until the end.
So, what is your definition of the end? Because there is no, I repeat no military solution here. Israel does not have the ability or desire to conquer or hold the entire middle east. So, there will always be an endless supply of people willing to attack Israel. The only solution to the middle east problem is negotiated peace. There will never be an "end" through war.

That doesn't mean war has no place in peace negotiations. Throughout history, military success has been used to negotiate peace terms. But at the end of the day, there will be a negotiated peace. This is not a winnable war for anyone.
 
Clearly, there is a line somewhere. If you drop a bomb that you know will kill 1 million people and at least 1 terrorist, do you believe that is morally superior to dropping a bomb that just kills a million people?
Agree there is a line somewhere. Hamas doesn’t differentiate between civilians and militants in its casualty counts, but the only estimates I have seen have out the civilian to combatant ratio killed around 1:1, which is lower than it was for us in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
Agree there is a line somewhere. Hamas doesn’t differentiate between civilians and militants in its casualty counts, but the only estimates I have seen have out the civilian to combatant ratio killed around 1:1, which is lower than it was for us in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Where did you see that lie? There are around 40k killed and half are children. So, you’re saying that all the adults killed are Hamas??
 
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