Israel assaults Iran, pounds Lebanon, Hezbollah

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Geisterfahrer said:
Deep and intense conversation between Ezra Klein and Ta Nehisi Coates here, around his writing on visiting Israel and specifically the West Bank. Gift ink to the transcript:

www.nytimes.com

Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Ta-Nehisi Coates

The Oct. 11, 2024, episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Ezra has had a number of podcasts with various people from various perspectives on this issue. I found this episode to be the worst and least insightful. Ezra clearly struggles with how to frame his own perspective on the issue (and that of the more moderate Israeli middle) and the podcast just kind of breezes by important issues such as demographics and the very morality of the existence of the Jewish state without any real counterpoints or discourse.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Ezra has had a number of podcasts with various people from various perspectives on this issue. I found this episode to be the worst and least insightful. Ezra clearly struggles with how to frame his own perspective on the issue (and that of the more moderate Israeli middle) and the podcast just kind of breezes by important issues such as demographics and the very morality of the existence of the Jewish state without any real counterpoints or discourse.
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I found Coates’ perspective important, Ezra’s less so.
 
ZenMode said:
Netanyahu has tolerated decades of terrorist attacks on Israel. It was Hamas that escalated the situation, not netanyahu.
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How many Israelis were killed from terrorists attacks vs how many Palestinians were killed by Israeli terrorist attacks? Numbers don't lie. Netanyahu has been a terrorist himself over the years.
 
RaiGuy said:
How many Israelis were killed from terrorists attacks vs how many Palestinians were killed by Israeli terrorist attacks? Numbers don't lie. Netanyahu has been a terrorist himself over the years.
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Do you think the number of Palestinian deaths is impacted by the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields and civilian structures for military purposes?

I believe there have been around 40-50k civilians killed as part of the current conflict. What makes that number unacceptably high?
 
ZenMode said:
Do you think the number of Palestinian deaths is impacted by the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields and civilian structures for military purposes?
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Exactly where can they go that civilians aren't going to be in the field of fire? It is among the most densely populated places on earth. "Hey, we're throwing a rebellion against someone incredibly more heavily armed than we are. Make sure sure you stand in the half dozen clear spots so we're not responsible for any of our civilians getting hurt. Now, go win one for the Gipper." Uh-huh.
 
finesse said:
Exactly where can they go that civilians aren't going to be in the field of fire? It is among the most densely populated places on earth. "Hey, we're throwing a rebellion against someone incredibly more heavily armed than we are. Make sure sure you stand in the half dozen clear spots so we're not responsible for any of our civilians getting hurt. Now, go win one for the Gipper." Uh-huh.
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Since the beginning of the war, Israel has warned Palestinians about areas that are going to be bombed via texts, phone calls and dropping of leaflets. Gaza is not very large, I agree, but if I got a text or phone call saying that my cul-de-sac was going to be bombed in 2 hours, I could quite easily move to another part of my neighborhood for safety and my neighborhood is significantly less than 140 sq miles.
 
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ZenMode said:
Since the beginning of the war, Israel has warned Palestinians about areas that are going to be bombed via texts, phone calls and dropping of leaflets. Gaza is not very large, I agree, but if I got a text or phone call saying that my cul-de-sac was going to be bombed in 2 hours, I could quite easily move to another part of my neighborhood for safety and my neighborhood is significantly less than 140 sq miles.
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Lol, those warnings are just for show so that they can say they are not targeting civilians. Israel has repeatedly bombed "safe" zones. They bombed the caravans of people fleeing the areas they told them to leave. They literally just bombed a tent city today that is housing the displaced people. Also, tell how quite easily you can move when the roads are destroyed, you have no car or gas, you have children and elderly that need to be taken care of? We saw in Florida how hectic it was for people to leave when a hurricane was coming and this was DAYS in advance and not a war happening. You're telling me that you could empty out a whole area in 2 hours? There are no other parts in the neighborhood that are safe. Look at the aftermath.

Many times they bomb residential buildings while people are sleeping in them in the middle of the night. How are these people supposed to get the "warnings"? Israel cut off their cell service and electricity, so they can't get texts or calls. And also, where do you expect them to go? It's not like they can stroll over to the local Holiday Inn. How does any of that make sense?
 
finesse said:
Exactly where can they go that civilians aren't going to be in the field of fire? It is among the most densely populated places on earth. "Hey, we're throwing a rebellion against someone incredibly more heavily armed than we are. Make sure sure you stand in the half dozen clear spots so we're not responsible for any of our civilians getting hurt. Now, go win one for the Gipper." Uh-huh.
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Zen never talks about Israel using civilians as human shields despite having the HQ of Israeli intelligence located in a densely populated area.
 
RaiGuy said:
Lol, those warnings are just for show so that they can say they are not targeting civilians.
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That's an opinion, not a fact. I believe the population of Gaza is 3 million people, all of which are squeezed into a 140 square mile area. The fact that only 42k people have been killed seems not only amazing, but a sign that the warnings are not just for show and Israel truly is trying to avoid civilian deaths which are inevitable in any war. I've also read that the Gaza Health Ministry doesn't differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths when reporting numbers.
Israel has repeatedly bombed "safe" zones. They bombed the caravans of people fleeing the areas they told them to leave. They literally just bombed a tent city today that is housing the displaced people. Also, tell how quite easily you can move when the roads are destroyed, you have no car or gas, you have children and elderly that need to be taken care of? We saw in Florida how hectic it was for people to leave when a hurricane was coming and this was DAYS in advance and not a war happening. You're telling me that you could empty out a whole area in 2 hours? There are no other parts in the neighborhood that are safe. Look at the aftermath.

Many times they bomb residential buildings while people are sleeping in them in the middle of the night. How are these people supposed to get the "warnings"? Israel cut off their cell service and electricity, so they can't get texts or calls. And also, where do you expect them to go? It's not like they can stroll over to the local Holiday Inn. How does any of that make sense?
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I haven't followed the details of the war since fairly early on, so I'm not familiar with most of the things you mentioned. I know Israel bombed areas that were once designated safe zones because those once-safe zones were being used by Hamas, but it wasn't done without warning.

War is, and always has been, ugly and included civilian deaths, we just never saw the images of the devastation. What is an acceptable number of civilian deaths when you have over 2 million people ( listed 3 million earlier) in a 140 mile area? What is an acceptable number of civilian deaths when the Hamas fighters intentionally use civilian areas and buildings for protection, because they know Israel is more concerned about civilians than they are, and tell civilians not to leave those areas?

That doesn't mean mistakes won't be made. IDF killed three (?) Israeli hostages who were trying surrender to them and I'm sure there are members of the IDF who are bad actors. I don't have the answer for what is an "acceptable" number of civilian deaths but, again, 42k deaths (if they are all civilians) sounds like an very low number for urban warfare in general, but especially given the population density of Gaza.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
I found Coates’ perspective important, Ezra’s less so.
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Why? Coates made zero effort to seek out the Israeli perspective on the issues at hand - in fact he seemed to suggest seeking out the Israeli perspective is morally irresponsible - completely dismissing nearly all Israelis in the process. Coates had a pre-conceived notion that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South and sought sources that could feed his confirmation bias on the subject.

Ezra Klein's perspective is far more informed on the subject. I don't agree with everything Ezra Klein has said on the subject of Israel and the Palestinian Arab conflict - but at least he has a well rounded understanding of the issue informed by many different perspectives from all sides.
 
Paine said:
Zen never talks about Israel using civilians as human shields despite having the HQ of Israeli intelligence located in a densely populated area.
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The idea of human shield assumes that the enemy cares about civilians deaths and would be slowed by possibility of killing civilians. There's no reason to believe Hamas cares about its own civilians, much less Israeli civilians as October 7th showed.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Why? Coates made zero effort to seek out the Israeli perspective on the issues at hand - in fact he seemed to suggest seeking out the Israeli perspective is morally irresponsible - completely dismissing nearly all Israelis in the process. Coates had a pre-conceived notion that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South and sought sources that could feed his confirmation bias on the subject.

Ezra Klein's perspective is far more informed on the subject. I don't agree with everything Ezra Klein has said on the subject of Israel and the Palestinian Arab conflict - but at least he has a well rounded understanding of the issue informed by many different perspectives from all sides.
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The Israeli perspective is well and over-represented. You know this.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Why? Coates made zero effort to seek out the Israeli perspective on the issues at hand - in fact he seemed to suggest seeking out the Israeli perspective is morally irresponsible - completely dismissing nearly all Israelis in the process. Coates had a pre-conceived notion that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South and sought sources that could feed his confirmation bias on the subject.

Ezra Klein's perspective is far more informed on the subject. I don't agree with everything Ezra Klein has said on the subject of Israel and the Palestinian Arab conflict - but at least he has a well rounded understanding of the issue informed by many different perspectives from all sides.
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It’s not a “pre-conceived notion” that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South. Coates’ position on that issue is directly from his research about race in America, how race/ethnicity operates in Israeli society, and his visits to Palestine.

What would make you think that Coates’ views on Israel are any more pre-conceived than the views of an Israeli Jew?
 
Geisterfahrer said:
The Israeli perspective is well and over-represented. You know this.
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Yeah that's what he said. I find it mostly bullshit. If you are going to write about a subject and you are going to make significant claims about the subject and try to speak with authority - you should at least seek out other perspectives.
 
Paine said:
It’s not a “pre-conceived notion” that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South. Coates’ position on that issue is directly from his research about race in America, how race/ethnicity operates in Israeli society, and his visits to Palestine.

What would make you think that Coates’ views on Israel are any more pre-conceived than the views of an Israeli Jew?
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It certainly is HIS pre-conceived notion. Israel is not America and the Palestinians are not former slaves from Africa.
 
I'm just saying what I thought of the podcast. Ezra has had a significant number of podcasts subject over the last year and each has been more or less interesting and insightful. I found the particular podcast with Coates to be the worst of all of them...and I've listened to them all.
 
p5mmr9 said:
It certainly is HIS pre-conceived notion. Israel is not America and the Palestinians are not former slaves from Africa.
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You didn’t answer the question. Settler colonialism and apartheid is not something that is exclusive to America or slaves from Africa.

What is it that makes you think this a preconceived notion that Coates has rather than it being borne out by research and experience?
 
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