Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

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ZenMode said:
Since the beginning of the war, Israel has warned Palestinians about areas that are going to be bombed via texts, phone calls and dropping of leaflets. Gaza is not very large, I agree, but if I got a text or phone call saying that my cul-de-sac was going to be bombed in 2 hours, I could quite easily move to another part of my neighborhood for safety and my neighborhood is significantly less than 140 sq miles.
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Lol, those warnings are just for show so that they can say they are not targeting civilians. Israel has repeatedly bombed "safe" zones. They bombed the caravans of people fleeing the areas they told them to leave. They literally just bombed a tent city today that is housing the displaced people. Also, tell how quite easily you can move when the roads are destroyed, you have no car or gas, you have children and elderly that need to be taken care of? We saw in Florida how hectic it was for people to leave when a hurricane was coming and this was DAYS in advance and not a war happening. You're telling me that you could empty out a whole area in 2 hours? There are no other parts in the neighborhood that are safe. Look at the aftermath.

Many times they bomb residential buildings while people are sleeping in them in the middle of the night. How are these people supposed to get the "warnings"? Israel cut off their cell service and electricity, so they can't get texts or calls. And also, where do you expect them to go? It's not like they can stroll over to the local Holiday Inn. How does any of that make sense?
 
RaiGuy said:
Lol, those warnings are just for show so that they can say they are not targeting civilians.
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That's an opinion, not a fact. I believe the population of Gaza is 3 million people, all of which are squeezed into a 140 square mile area. The fact that only 42k people have been killed seems not only amazing, but a sign that the warnings are not just for show and Israel truly is trying to avoid civilian deaths which are inevitable in any war. I've also read that the Gaza Health Ministry doesn't differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths when reporting numbers.
Israel has repeatedly bombed "safe" zones. They bombed the caravans of people fleeing the areas they told them to leave. They literally just bombed a tent city today that is housing the displaced people. Also, tell how quite easily you can move when the roads are destroyed, you have no car or gas, you have children and elderly that need to be taken care of? We saw in Florida how hectic it was for people to leave when a hurricane was coming and this was DAYS in advance and not a war happening. You're telling me that you could empty out a whole area in 2 hours? There are no other parts in the neighborhood that are safe. Look at the aftermath.

Many times they bomb residential buildings while people are sleeping in them in the middle of the night. How are these people supposed to get the "warnings"? Israel cut off their cell service and electricity, so they can't get texts or calls. And also, where do you expect them to go? It's not like they can stroll over to the local Holiday Inn. How does any of that make sense?
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I haven't followed the details of the war since fairly early on, so I'm not familiar with most of the things you mentioned. I know Israel bombed areas that were once designated safe zones because those once-safe zones were being used by Hamas, but it wasn't done without warning.

War is, and always has been, ugly and included civilian deaths, we just never saw the images of the devastation. What is an acceptable number of civilian deaths when you have over 2 million people ( listed 3 million earlier) in a 140 mile area? What is an acceptable number of civilian deaths when the Hamas fighters intentionally use civilian areas and buildings for protection, because they know Israel is more concerned about civilians than they are, and tell civilians not to leave those areas?

That doesn't mean mistakes won't be made. IDF killed three (?) Israeli hostages who were trying surrender to them and I'm sure there are members of the IDF who are bad actors. I don't have the answer for what is an "acceptable" number of civilian deaths but, again, 42k deaths (if they are all civilians) sounds like an very low number for urban warfare in general, but especially given the population density of Gaza.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
I found Coates’ perspective important, Ezra’s less so.
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Why? Coates made zero effort to seek out the Israeli perspective on the issues at hand - in fact he seemed to suggest seeking out the Israeli perspective is morally irresponsible - completely dismissing nearly all Israelis in the process. Coates had a pre-conceived notion that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South and sought sources that could feed his confirmation bias on the subject.

Ezra Klein's perspective is far more informed on the subject. I don't agree with everything Ezra Klein has said on the subject of Israel and the Palestinian Arab conflict - but at least he has a well rounded understanding of the issue informed by many different perspectives from all sides.
 
Paine said:
Zen never talks about Israel using civilians as human shields despite having the HQ of Israeli intelligence located in a densely populated area.
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The idea of human shield assumes that the enemy cares about civilians deaths and would be slowed by possibility of killing civilians. There's no reason to believe Hamas cares about its own civilians, much less Israeli civilians as October 7th showed.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Why? Coates made zero effort to seek out the Israeli perspective on the issues at hand - in fact he seemed to suggest seeking out the Israeli perspective is morally irresponsible - completely dismissing nearly all Israelis in the process. Coates had a pre-conceived notion that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South and sought sources that could feed his confirmation bias on the subject.

Ezra Klein's perspective is far more informed on the subject. I don't agree with everything Ezra Klein has said on the subject of Israel and the Palestinian Arab conflict - but at least he has a well rounded understanding of the issue informed by many different perspectives from all sides.
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The Israeli perspective is well and over-represented. You know this.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
The Israeli perspective is well and over-represented. You know this.
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Yeah that's what he said. I find it mostly bullshit. If you are going to write about a subject and you are going to make significant claims about the subject and try to speak with authority - you should at least seek out other perspectives.
 
Paine said:
It’s not a “pre-conceived notion” that Israel is akin to the Jim Crow South. Coates’ position on that issue is directly from his research about race in America, how race/ethnicity operates in Israeli society, and his visits to Palestine.

What would make you think that Coates’ views on Israel are any more pre-conceived than the views of an Israeli Jew?
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It certainly is HIS pre-conceived notion. Israel is not America and the Palestinians are not former slaves from Africa.
 
I'm just saying what I thought of the podcast. Ezra has had a significant number of podcasts subject over the last year and each has been more or less interesting and insightful. I found the particular podcast with Coates to be the worst of all of them...and I've listened to them all.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Yeah that's what he said. I find it mostly bullshit. If you are going to write about a subject and you are going to make significant claims about the subject and try to speak with authority - you should at least seek out other perspectives.
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Why? What he’s written is not contradicted by an Israeli point of view. The West Bank is an occupation that has become a system of segregation, deprivation and forced removal. It is Israeli state policy to expand settlements, seize land, and coerce exile. Do we need the Israeli settler perspective to boside this and tell us why it’s necessary?

You don’t like what Coates is showing so you hang your hat on this bullshit lack of Israeli perspective.
 
Coates spent a considerable amount of time conflating the settler movement in the West Bank and east Jerusalem and the general population of Israel. So, are you referencing "settler colonialism" in the West Bank or is this a general condemnation of the creation of Israel overall?

And Coates himself notes he did not have any experience on the issue until his trip (and made reference to this lack of experience as the very reason for the trip). So, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. He started with a preconceived "hypothesis" of the situation and sought sources that would confirm his hypothesis.

Interest in what Coates has to say will vary - I his thoughts lacking on the subject.
 
Geisterfahrer said:
Why? What he’s written is not contradicted by an Israeli point of view. The West Bank is an occupation that has become a system of segregation, deprivation and forced removal. It is Israeli state policy to expand settlements, seize land, and coerce exile. Do we need the Israeli settler perspective to boside this and tell us why it’s necessary?

You don’t like what Coates is showing so you hang your hat on this bullshit lack of Israeli perspective.
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He doesn't just reference the occupation in the West Bank. Nor is he just talking about the settler movement. His glancing discussions of demographics speak to the very existence of the Jewish state. I'm not sure why you didn't pick up on this.

Coates isn't showing anything new or insightful. Jimmy Carter called the West Bank an apartheid. This isn't a new idea. I don't like what Coates says because - well, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over. I've already said a few times on this thread what I think. You can take it or leave it.
 
Paine said:
Israel began as a settler colonial state. I’m not just referring to the current settlements in the West Bank, and neither is Coates.
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Israel did not begin as a settler colonial state. And yeah - I know Coates would be more than happy for Israel to be wiped from the map. He made that pretty clear on Ezra Klein's podcast.
 
p5mmr9 said:
Coates spent a considerable amount of time conflating the settler movement in the West Bank and east Jerusalem and the general population of Israel. So, are you referencing "settler colonialism" in the West Bank or is this a general condemnation of the creation of Israel overall?

And Coates himself notes he did not have any experience on the issue until his trip (and made reference to this lack of experience as the very reason for the trip). So, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. He started with a preconceived "hypothesis" of the situation and sought sources that would confirm his hypothesis.

Interest in what Coates has to say will vary - I his thoughts lacking on the subject.
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I view the state of Israel as a settled question and don’t see value in engaging in questions of the moral legitimacy of the state of Israel. In other words, I’m properly a Zionist.

But the state of the West Bank and the Palestinian question have become a flaming trash dump in geopolitics, and I put the lion’s share of the blame for this on Bibi and his psychotic government and the settler policy for decades running.

Americans simply do not understand the vast gulf between a Palestinian village and even a relatively new settler outpost established a click (or less) away. To me this is where Coates is coming from, and I’m fine with him thus narrowing the scope.
 
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p5mmr9 said:
It certainly is HIS pre-conceived notion. Israel is not America and the Palestinians are not former slaves from Africa.
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I always found Dick Vitale to be obnoxious but it wasn't because he described Dean Smith as the Michelangelo of college basketball despite the fact that Dean Smith was not a long dead Renaissance artist from Italy.

Are you saying that Dean Smith isn't the Michelangelo of college basketball?
 
Report: Hamas Planned 9/11 Style Explosion Of Tel Aviv Skyscraper

The Washington Post revealed further details uncovered in the secret documents captured by IDF forces in Hamas command centers in Gaza.

For years, Hamas leaders had planned an even deadlier terror assault on Israel than the one it perpetrated on October 7, including Sept. 11-style toppling of Tel Aviv skyscrapers.

Some of the plans were carried out on October 7 but others were more aspirational, including the plan to bring down a Tel Aviv skyscraper. Hamas could not determine how to bring down the skyscraper, continuing that targeting Israel’s rail system and using it to transport terrorists and powerful bombs was more practical.

Documents were found detailing Hamas’s advanced plans for attacks using trains, boats and even horse-drawn chariots and carrying out a combined assault on Israel on multiple fronts with the help of Iran and Hezbollah from the north, south, and east.

The documents reveal that Hamas assumed that once it launched a successful initial attack on Israel, Iran and Hezbollah would eagerly join in, stating that a key part of any operation would be “linking and preparing the external fronts (Lebanon, Syria, and Sinai) and agreeing on mechanisms for communicating peacefully and in war.”

The report added that Sinwar was “crystal clear” about his ultimate intention: the destruction of the state of Israel – reiterating his goal multiple times and repeatedly pressuring Iran to aid the terror group in its goal of wiping out the Jewish state.

www.theyeshivaworld.com

Report: Hamas Planned 9/11 Style Explosion Of Tel Aviv Skyscraper

The Washington Post revealed further details uncovered in the secret documents captured by IDF forces in Hamas command centers in Gaza. For years, Hamas leaders had planned an even deadlier terror assault on Israel than the one it perpetrated on October 7, including Sept. 11-style toppling of...
www.theyeshivaworld.com
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Reposting for those who missed it due to board quirks:
Columbia's pro-Hamas groups have now openly endorsed murdering Jewish people wherever they may be:

www.nytimes.com

Pro-Palestinian Group at Columbia Now Backs ‘Armed Resistance’ by Hamas

Columbia University Apartheid Divest has withdrawn an apology it made last spring for a member who said “Zionists don’t deserve to live.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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So what? Fifty to a hundred kooks have no power and no influence. They are, I would imagine, mostly grad students who have stalled out on their dissertations and are not long for Columbia's campus.
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Reposting for those who missed it due to board quirks:
Columbia's pro-Hamas groups have now openly endorsed murdering Jewish people wherever they may be:

www.nytimes.com

Pro-Palestinian Group at Columbia Now Backs ‘Armed Resistance’ by Hamas

Columbia University Apartheid Divest has withdrawn an apology it made last spring for a member who said “Zionists don’t deserve to live.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Hello, generic username making first post on this board who is definitely not trolling. Whatever you think of the Columbia student movement, nothing in that article supported the idea that they have called for "murdering Jewish people wherever they may be."
 
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