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Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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Other important factors that bear consideration:

Israel has used starvation as a weapon of war.

Israel has cut off water and electricity to the Gaza Strip.

Israel has destroyed all of Gaza’s universities and 80% of its schools.

A consensus of genocide historians say Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

Right-wing publications and politicians (including cabinet members and Netanyahu himself) in Isarael have repeatedly engaged in genocidal rhetoric against Palestinians.

Israel has used white phosphorus against the population of Gaza.

The Israeli military has actively impeded humanitarian aid from entering Gaza.

Israel has deliberately targeted health infrastructure and doctors in Gaza.
Many of these are debatable.

Cutting off water and electricity in wartime is not new. Nor does it count as genocide. Water was restored very quickly....expecting to have power in the middle of an active warzone is a bit like expecting to have power in the middle of a hurricane.

Hamas uses Gaza's universities and its schools to store weapons and conduct military operations, rendering them legitimate military targets.

Genocidal rhetoric from an extreme fringe is meaningless. Pro-Hamas protesters have engaged in genocidal rhetoric against Jewish people here in the United States. That does not mean that the United States is committing a genocide against the Jews.

White phosphorus is not banned under international law.

The Israeli military put checkpoints on aid coming in in order to prevent weapons from being smuggled in with the aid. Hamas has stolen aid from Palestinian civilians.

Hamas has used health infrastructure as military command posts and weapons storage depots in the war, in violation of international law. Islamic Jihad also blew up one of Gaza's hospitals with a rocket and tried to blame the same on Israel.
 
Kamala's husband is Jewish. I don't think she's terrified of AIPAC. She probably simply recognizes that Israel has the right to defend itself without going too far in doing so.
Why does that matter? Many of the anti-genocide people are Jewish. AIPAC is pro-Israel, not pro-Jewish. Huge difference. Also, what line does Israel have to cross for it to not go "too far" in defending itself? Mass starvation? Collective punishment? Raping and torturing innocent prisoners? Bombing water supplies? Bombing schools? Bombing hospitals? Bombing "safe areas" where people are in tents? Bombing World Central Kitchen vehicles that were traveling on supposedly safe zones? Sniping children?

None of those are red lines?
 
Why does that matter? Many of the anti-genocide people are Jewish. AIPAC is pro-Israel, not pro-Jewish. Huge difference. Also, what line does Israel have to cross for it to not go "too far" in defending itself? Mass starvation? Collective punishment? Raping and torturing innocent prisoners? Bombing water supplies? Bombing schools? Bombing hospitals? Bombing "safe areas" where people are in tents? Bombing World Central Kitchen vehicles that were traveling on supposedly safe zones? Sniping children?

None of those are red lines?

When Israel's enemies blow up their own hospitals and use hospitals and schools as military command centers and storage depots, those areas are rendered unsafe. I'd argue that the only group aside from a few extreme Israeli politicians that wants a genocide in Gaza is Hamas. They've essentially admitted as such, stating that their goal is to get as many civilians killed as possible in order to help their PR battle. Which accounts for them using hospitals and schools as military facilities.
 
The genocidal rhetoric is coming from the government in charge, not from an extremist fringe.

Just say you’re an apologist for an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and move on. At least that would be honest.
The genocidal rhetoric is coming from Hamas and its supporters. Great job ignoring 95% of the post, though.
 
Many of these are debatable.

Cutting off water and electricity in wartime is not new. Nor does it count as genocide. Water was restored very quickly....expecting to have power in the middle of an active warzone is a bit like expecting to have power in the middle of a hurricane.

Hamas uses Gaza's universities and its schools to store weapons and conduct military operations, rendering them legitimate military targets.

Genocidal rhetoric from an extreme fringe is meaningless. Pro-Hamas protesters have engaged in genocidal rhetoric against Jewish people here in the United States. That does not mean that the United States is committing a genocide against the Jews.

White phosphorus is not banned under international law.

The Israeli military put checkpoints on aid coming in in order to prevent weapons from being smuggled in with the aid. Hamas has stolen aid from Palestinian civilians.

Hamas has used health infrastructure as military command posts and weapons storage depots in the war, in violation of international law. Islamic Jihad also blew up one of Gaza's hospitals with a rocket and tried to blame the same on Israel.
Cutting off water is a war crime. So we are fine with supporting that?

There was no proof or evidence that Hamas was using the universities for anything, but, as usual, Israel makes allegations like that without anyone questioning it.

White phosphorus is not allowed to be used on civilians.

There was only fabricated evidence about Hamas using the hospitals. None of that was proven. And, on top of that, Israel blocks outside investigators, so their allegations can't be checked by neutral parties.
 
Cutting off water is a war crime. So we are fine with supporting that?

There was no proof or evidence that Hamas was using the universities for anything, but, as usual, Israel makes allegations like that without anyone questioning it.

White phosphorus is not allowed to be used on civilians.

There was only fabricated evidence about Hamas using the hospitals. None of that was proven. And, on top of that, Israel blocks outside investigators, so their allegations can't be checked by neutral parties.
All of this was proven, even by the UN who found weapons caches stored in Palestinian elementary schools. U.S. intelligence also found evidence that Hamas was (and likely still is) using hospitals for military operations.
 
No point in responding to someone who is completely bought into propaganda from a far-right government that is sniping children.
As opposed to someone who is completely bought into propaganda from a terrorist organization that lights children on fire in front of their parents? Cool. I'm fine placing you on my ignore list, then.
 
The genocidal rhetoric is coming from Hamas and its supporters. Great job ignoring 95% of the post, though.
Have you heard the rhetoric coming from Netanyahu and his cronies? They're spouting genocidal rhetoric AND are acting on it.
 
As opposed to someone who is completely bought into propaganda from a terrorist organization that lights children on fire in front of their parents? Cool. I'm fine placing you on my ignore list, then.
What children were burned in front of their parents? Why are you quick to believe a government that is actively dismembering children with bombs and sniping them?
 
What children were burned in front of their parents? Why are you quick to believe a government that is actively dismembering children with bombs and sniping them?
There's a whole list of atrocities that Hamas committed on 10/7. They even video recorded a lot of their torturous and murderous actions. I'm not sure why you are attempting to gaslight us into believing that 10/7 wasn't horrific?
 
There's a whole list of atrocities that Hamas committed on 10/7. They even video recorded a lot of their torturous and murderous actions. I'm not sure why you are attempting to gaslight us into believing that 10/7 wasn't horrific?
Huh? Show me one place where I said 10/7 wasn't horrific. Just because something horrific happened doesn't give Israel a green light to wipe out everyone in Gaza. Also, why are you gaslighting us into believing Israel hasn't crossed the line and has the right to do everything it is doing? Are you able to justify how their horrific actions make Israel any safer?
 
Huh? Show me one place where I said 10/7 wasn't horrific. Just because something horrific happened doesn't give Israel a green light to wipe out everyone in Gaza. Also, why are you gaslighting us into believing Israel hasn't crossed the line and has the right to do everything it is doing? Are you able to justify how their horrific actions make Israel any safer?
Israel has absolutely crossed some lines. And Israel isn't "wiping out everyone in Gaza"....not even close to it. Unfortunately, when you are fighting an enemy that has stated that its goal is to murder every single Jewish person in the area, and that has acted on those intentions with devastating consequences, that enemy (in this case, Hamas) cannot be allowed to continue to exist in any meaningful fashion. Hamas knows this, which is why it deliberately uses schools, hospitals, universities, apartment blocks, etc to conduct military operations. The best thing for Palestinians at this point would be for Hamas to cease to exist. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, but Israel has substantially weakened them.
 
If VP Harris wishes to distancer herself slightly from the Biden Admin on this issue, she can say 1) Israel was brutally attached and the targets were civilians. 2) Israel, like any country would, responded forcefully to this outragous Hamas action, 3) We need to get rid of Hamas and end the war, 4) Once the war is over, if I am elected I will have the goal of makinbg the two-state solution happen (inclding a demilitarized Independent Palestinian state in WB and Gaza with a multi-national peacekeeping force by the 60th asnniversary of the Six Day wara in June 1967. The US and out allies in the region will press all parties to get the deal done.
Exactly how do you “get rid of Hamas and end the war?” By killing more civilians? You will never get rid of Hamas by radicalizing the next generation.
 
Israel has absolutely crossed some lines. And Israel isn't "wiping out everyone in Gaza"....not even close to it. Unfortunately, when you are fighting an enemy that has stated that its goal is to murder every single Jewish person in the area, and that has acted on those intentions with devastating consequences, that enemy (in this case, Hamas) cannot be allowed to continue to exist in any meaningful fashion. Hamas knows this, which is why it deliberately uses schools, hospitals, universities, apartment blocks, etc to conduct military operations. The best thing for Palestinians at this point would be for Hamas to cease to exist. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, but Israel has substantially weakened them.
I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.
 
I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.

Israel as a whole hasn't gone too far. There are some instances in which the IDF and/or settlers have gone too far.

After 10/7, Israel had to do something. Hamas represented an existential threat to Israel, and couldn't be simply left alone. So, Israel went into Gaza and after Hamas. Hamas was well-embedded in the civilian infrastructure of Gaza, and had tunnels located underneath most of the Gaza Strip and into Egypt. The war has been brutal, but what else could Israel do? Simply wait for Hamas to launch its next 10/7 as it promised to do over and over again until Israel was destroyed?
 
Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”
 
Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”
That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.
 
That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.
Hamas has been documented using these areas for military activities and has even bragged about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. I don't trust what Hamas says any more than you trust what Israel says.
 
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