Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[RaiGuy]

Israel has absolutely crossed some lines. And Israel isn't "wiping out everyone in Gaza"....not even close to it. Unfortunately, when you are fighting an enemy that has stated that its goal is to murder every single Jewish person in the area, and that has acted on those intentions with devastating consequences, that enemy (in this case, Hamas) cannot be allowed to continue to exist in any meaningful fashion. Hamas knows this, which is why it deliberately uses schools, hospitals, universities, apartment blocks, etc to conduct military operations. The best thing for Palestinians at this point would be for Hamas to cease to exist. Unfortunately, that isn't realistic, but Israel has substantially weakened them.

I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I thought you said earlier that Israel hasn't gone too far?

Also, how is what Israel is doing now going to eliminate Hamas? They've tried many times before, and Hamas came out stronger. They might be temporarily weakened, but they will quickly be able to recruit again because of the trauma Israel has caused.
They are attempting to clear out Gaza. They've displaced nearly everyone in Gaza from their homes, and then they bombed them in tents. They want to force the survivors into Egypt eventually. Have you seen the before and after of Gaza? They are flattening it and destroying the streets and all infrastructure. They might not bomb every last person, but their actions will cause much more death. Polio is now rampant in Gaza. Children are literally starving to death. None of these actions will destroy Hamas.

Israel as a whole hasn't gone too far. There are some instances in which the IDF and/or settlers have gone too far.

After 10/7, Israel had to do something. Hamas represented an existential threat to Israel, and couldn't be simply left alone. So, Israel went into Gaza and after Hamas. Hamas was well-embedded in the civilian infrastructure of Gaza, and had tunnels located underneath most of the Gaza Strip and into Egypt. The war has been brutal, but what else could Israel do? Simply wait for Hamas to launch its next 10/7 as it promised to do over and over again until Israel was destroyed?

 

[RaiGuy]

Another school/shelter bombed by Israel. Another massacre (over 100 killed)

 

[nycfan]

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.

www.nytimes.com

 

[RaiGuy]

Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.

www.nytimes.com

That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.

Hamas has been documented using these areas for military activities and has even bragged about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. I don't trust what Hamas says any more than you trust what Israel says.

 

[Paine]

That’s such bullshit. People were doing their morning prayers and they bombed them. There are pieces of children everywhere. They can’t tell the bodies apart because they are all mangled together, and in the videos, you can hear the women and children yelling in pain and they were burning to death. The water supply is cut off so no one could help them. Israel keeps killing civilians and then just says Hamas was there (without ever showing a shred of evidence) and people buy that shit. These same people that condemned Oct 7 are justifying these killings.

That was another “safe” zone where displaced families were sheltering.

Even if there were Hamas operatives there, that doesn’t give Israel the excuse to bomb it to hell. But that’s the whole issue at hand here, isn’t it?

BlueCups thinks that Palestinians are less than human. Palestinian women, children, and elderly don’t matter, so of course they think bombing them is justified.

It’s sick that people in this country continue to justify a genocide with propaganda that is spoon fed to them by a radical right wing government (the very thing a lot of them are afraid of if Trump gets a second term.)

Never again means never again to anyone!

 

[RaiGuy]

Hamas has been documented using these areas for military activities and has even bragged about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. I don't trust what Hamas says any more than you trust what Israel says.

I’m basing my reasoning on actual footage of the aftermath. I’m not going to post it here because it’s very graphic. The amount of children dismembered and brunt to death is sickening. Even if Hamas was supposedly there, this is not justified. Would Hamas be justified in the killings of the festival people if they claimed that Israeli soldiers were there? No? I didn’t think so.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I’m basing my reasoning on actual footage of the aftermath. I’m not going to post it here because it’s very graphic. The amount of children dismembered and brunt to death is sickening. Even if Hamas was supposedly there, this is not justified. Would Hamas be justified in the killings of the festival people if they claimed that Israeli soldiers were there? No? I didn’t think so.

The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.

 

[RaiGuy]

The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.

That’s also more Israeli propaganda. You say Israel values its civilians but why did they initiate the Hannibal directive on Oct 7th? Why did they kill their own hostages that were waving white flags and speaking in Hebrew? They really valued them there.
I don’t feel like you value Palestinian lies because you seem fine with what Israel is doing because it’s all Hamas’s fault.

 

[farce©]

Israel reports the school was being used by Hamas:
"Lt. Col. Nadav Shoshani, an Israeli military spokesman, said based on intelligence assessments, that approximately 20 militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad armed groups, including senior commanders, were operating from the school and using it to carry out attacks.

“The compound, and the mosque that was struck within it, served as an active Hamas and Islamic Jihad military facility,” said Colonel Shoshani, without providing details.

He said information released by Gaza authorities in the past has “proven to be sorely unreliable.”

Middle East Crisis: Israel Strikes School Complex Turned Shelter in Gaza, Killing Dozens, Local Health Officials Say

Israel said Hamas was using the school compound for military operations and cast doubt on the casualty tolls from Gaza, where health officials said dozens were killed.

www.nytimes.com

They say this every single time and you slurp it up. A massacre is a massacre, and Israel needs to slow the fuck down.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

The difference is that Israel actually values the lives of its citizens, while Hamas views Palestinian civilians as nothing more than cannon fodder for its PR campaign. How can you safely and effectively wage war against an enemy that openly admits to trying to get as many innocent civilians on its side killed as possible? I feel for the innocent Palestinians, because they are caught in a situation in which their own government wants them dead and the Israeli government doesn't care enough to keep them alive.

The human shield argument doesn't work when Israel wants to bomb the human shields just as much as the guys behind them.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

That’s also more Israeli propaganda. You say Israel values its civilians but why did they initiate the Hannibal directive on Oct 7th? Why did they kill their own hostages that were waving white flags and speaking in Hebrew? They really valued them there.
I don’t feel like you value Palestinian lies because you seem fine with what Israel is doing because it’s all Hamas’s fault.

They killed their own hostages because they were idiots, not because they wanted to kill them. Friendly fire has been an unfortunate reality of every war.

I’m not fine with civilian deaths. I just know that in a war that is being conducted in a very dense urban environment, they are inevitable…particularly when one side uses its own civilians as bait. That’s why the best thing for all sides would be for this war to end as quickly as possible.

 

[heelslegup]

Honestly, about the only person who has been even-handed in this tragedy has been the International Court of Justice official who said that by the definition of international law, both senior Hamas and Israeli officals have committed war crimes begining October 7 2023.
These officials will never face consequences given the politics involved but one cannot argue with the ICJ official's statement IMO.
Time for the US and other nations to impose a peace settlement on the parties so this does not keep happening over and over. The vast majprity of Israelis and Palestinians want a two-state solution. Time for the world to put a halt to the extremeists on both sides preventing this from happening.
The blind spot for Biden in all this has been that he rhapsodizes about an Israel led by persons like Golda Meir or Yitzhak Rabin when instead it is led presently by craven extreme opportunists like Benjamin Netanyahy. Putting Bibi in the same league as Meir or Rabin is like comparing Trump or Jimmy Swaggart to Jesus.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

They say this every single time and you slurp it up. A massacre is a massacre, and Israel needs to slow the fuck down.

I think the opposite is true. The faster this war ends the sooner life gets better for the Palestinians caught in the middle.

 

[RaiGuy]

I think the opposite is true. The faster this war ends the sooner life gets better for the Palestinians caught in the middle.

And how does it end? Israel didn’t have any goals except total destruction.

 

[farce©]

I think the opposite is true. The faster this war ends the sooner life gets better for the Palestinians caught in the middle.

The Israelis claim they have to destroy Hamas. If that requires eradication of Palestinians in Gaza it appears they are fine with that. And you will be cheerleading the slaughter the whole way.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

And how does it end? Israel didn’t have any goals except total destruction.

In my mind the best case scenario is Sinwar dead, Hamas out of power and an international peacekeeping force in Gaza. Rebuild it like we rebuilt Germany and Japan after 1945. Worst case scenario is a stalemate that lasts a couple of years until Hamas attacks again, Israel responds and we're back in the same boat in 2028.

 

[farce©]

In my mind the best case scenario is Sinwar dead, Hamas out of power and an international peacekeeping force in Gaza. Rebuild it like we rebuilt Germany and Japan after 1945. Worst case scenario is a stalemate that lasts a couple of years until Hamas attacks again, Israel responds and we're back in the same boat in 2028.

Germany and Japan had some degree of self-determination and a path to self rule. Gaza has none of that.