Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

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ZenMode said:
Yes.

Yes. Nobody knows what Israel should do, but they know what Israel shouldn't do and that is attempt to win and defeat Hamas. They're apparently supposed to respond, but only a little bit...and then wait for the next attack and respond just a little bit and so on...
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Again, you haven't answered how their strategy will work this time when they've tried it many times before and failed. They have no real plan to deal with Hamas. Their only plan to flatten and clear the land to take it over. Yet, either your head is in the sand or you are too stupid to see that.
 
RaiGuy said:
Again, you haven't answered how their strategy will work this time when they've tried it many times before and failed.
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I don't recall Israel trying a full ground invasion.
RaiGuy said:
They have no real plan to deal with Hamas.
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I've said before that there is no way for Israel, on its own, to fix the issue of Muslim terrorism/Islamism on its own. That can only be fixed internally by moderate/liberal Muslims. So, it may be true that all Israel can do is decimate Gaza/Hamas, destroy all their tunnels, destroy all their weaponsetc just hoping to push the next October 7th attack further out. It may also be true that Israel can get Hamas out of government. An October 7th-type attack didn't happen under Fatah. I assume that is due to the fact that Hamas was only operating within Gaza, not running the government of Gaza.
RaiGuy said:
Their only plan to flatten and clear the land to take it over. Yet, either your head is in the sand or you are too stupid to see that.
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Neither you or I can speak for Israel. We can discuss Israel taking over Gaza IF it happens. Until it does, it's speculation.
 


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I mean, yeah, agreed. Has Israel read the Ransom of Red Chief?
 
RaiGuy said:
How about you answer how Israel will know when it has defeated Hamas and when this "war" will end? They've tried and failed many times to defeat Hamas. It won't work this way either. Ethnically cleansing all the Palestinians out of Gaza is not a solution.
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They seem to have done a good job at dismantling their key enemies. Hamas is weakened and unable to launch another 10/7-style attack. Hezbollah has been crippled and is no longer interested in fighting. The Houthis are done. Iran has backed off. People may not like the tactics, but Israel has done a remarkable job at neutralizing their adversaries.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
The tunnels under the hospitals aren’t even in dispute.
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No one is disputing the existence of tunnels, as Israel themselves built some under one of the Gaza hospitals. What is disputed is how to deal with them. Flattening everything above them is not the course of action that should be taken. Israel is able to conduct targeted attacks, but they decide going for total destruction is better.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
I don’t think that is a fair comparison. 10/7 wasn’t just one lone gunman. It was a coordinated attack by hundreds of heavily armed terrorists. Not to mention the thousands of missiles that Hamas launched into Israel prior to and after 10/7. Hamas is a paramilitary terrorist organization. Law enforcement would not be leading the response to them.
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Of course law enforcement wouldn't be leading the response to them. But my question wasn't really about law enforcement, was it? I mean, I added that flourish to personalize the issue for you, but we both know the answer, right? Of course you wouldn't bomb the shit of the building. You'd find another way.

I don't mean that as a complete refutation of your point. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy for a number of reasons. Still, stay with me for a minute and let's think about the circumstances in which destroying the building could be justified. Well, if the guy was planning a huge chemical attack, or was putting the finishing touches on a nuke. In that case, the loss of life from bombing could be miniscule compared to not bombing.

So suppose law enforcement does that. Who would have the burden of proof? Would we insist that the victims prove that the bomber wouldn't have killed anyone else but for the bombing? Or would we make the police explain why they thought it necessary? You know the answer to that question as well. And that's precisely the weakness in your position on Gaza. It should be Israel's burden to demonstrate why it is necessary to kill huge numbers of people to protect itself, not the Palestinians' burden to show that it is not.

[Note: this is one reason why the "what should Israel do" question is so empty]

I see absolutely no reason to trust Israel's claims about doing the minimum required to win this war. I see no reason to trust anything they say, given how many times they've provably lied and dissembled. And yes, I'm aware that Hamas is not exactly a committed truth teller. Conflict often produces propaganda on all sides. In absence of any actual proof that slaughtering civilians is necessary, I'm going with the common intuition that it's not. There is almost never a situation anywhere in which killing hundreds of thousands and starving millions (maybe or maybe not to the point of death) is necessary to defeat a paramilitary organization.
 
Does anyone think Israel regrets including Sinwar in the 1,000's of prisoners
superrific said:
All this proves is that you don't know what genocide means.
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According to the 1948 International Genocide Convention it means committing acts "with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group."

Agree?
 
RaiGuy said:
No one is disputing the existence of tunnels, as Israel themselves built some under one of the Gaza hospitals. What is disputed is how to deal with them. Flattening everything above them is not the course of action that should be taken. Israel is able to conduct targeted attacks, but they decide going for total destruction is better.
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Then why post the video and the BBC and say no one can confirm the tunnels under the hospitals? That’s not in dispute. The jest is there are tunnels under the hospitals. Folks posting that video and saying “but is it real?” Is done so that people question the existence.
 
superrific said:
The underlined language undermines everything you've been saying for 100 pages. I appreciate the assist in debunking.
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I would underline "with intent". The population of Gaza, since the 1948 Genocide Convention, has grown at 3x the world average. Does that sound like Israel, who is more than capable of committing genocide, has intent to commit genocide?

You understand that civilians are going to die in war, right? You can't just say any number of deaths qualifies as "in part" for committing genocide.
 
superrific said:
Of course law enforcement wouldn't be leading the response to them. But my question wasn't really about law enforcement, was it? I mean, I added that flourish to personalize the issue for you, but we both know the answer, right? Of course you wouldn't bomb the shit of the building. You'd find another way.

I don't mean that as a complete refutation of your point. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy for a number of reasons. Still, stay with me for a minute and let's think about the circumstances in which destroying the building could be justified. Well, if the guy was planning a huge chemical attack, or was putting the finishing touches on a nuke. In that case, the loss of life from bombing could be miniscule compared to not bombing.

So suppose law enforcement does that. Who would have the burden of proof? Would we insist that the victims prove that the bomber wouldn't have killed anyone else but for the bombing? Or would we make the police explain why they thought it necessary? You know the answer to that question as well. And that's precisely the weakness in your position on Gaza. It should be Israel's burden to demonstrate why it is necessary to kill huge numbers of people to protect itself, not the Palestinians' burden to show that it is not.

[Note: this is one reason why the "what should Israel do" question is so empty]

I see absolutely no reason to trust Israel's claims about doing the minimum required to win this war. I see no reason to trust anything they say, given how many times they've provably lied and dissembled. And yes, I'm aware that Hamas is not exactly a committed truth teller. Conflict often produces propaganda on all sides. In absence of any actual proof that slaughtering civilians is necessary, I'm going with the common intuition that it's not. There is almost never a situation anywhere in which killing hundreds of thousands and starving millions (maybe or maybe not to the point of death) is necessary to defeat a paramilitary organization.
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I don't think that Israel is doing the minimum required to win this more, nor are they doing the maximum. Sometimes the "minimum" is a worse option for all involved because it results in a longer, protracted war that produces more casualties than a shorter, more intense war would have.

In this case, you have a well-armed terrorist organization with thousands of fighters that has openly stated it desires to commit genocide against Israel. On 10/7, it acted on those desires and killed over 1,000 Israelis in a matter of hours. Prior to and after 10/7, it launched missiles by the thousands into Israeli cities. That's not something that any sovereign nation would tolerate, and Israel rightfully said "enough is enough." This wasn't a single guy in a bunker....it was a well-armed, military opponent. The situation in Gaza is warfare. It isn't law enforcement. It is warfare, similar to what we saw with the GWOT in Iraq and Afghanistan. The difference is, for Israel the enemy is based on all sides of it. It isn't Israel's fault that Hamas has intentionally built its military infrastructure inside of and underneath civilian infrastructure in Gaza. It isn't Israel's fault that Hamas has plainly stated that it welcomes Palestinian civilian casualties because they help bolster its cause. It isn't Israel's fault that Hamas doesn't wear uniforms. War is ugly.
 
HintonJamesHeel said:
Then why post the video and the BBC and say no one can confirm the tunnels under the hospitals? That’s not in dispute. The jest is there are tunnels under the hospitals. Folks posting that video and saying “but is it real?” Is done so that people question the existence.
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Because Israel claims every building has a tunnel under it and it used by Hamas. That’s just excuses to justify wiping out Gaza
 
ZZLPHeels said:
It isn't Israel's fault that Hamas has intentionally built its military infrastructure inside of and underneath civilian infrastructure in Gaza.
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Yes it is. That was always the only possible outcome of the blockade. You can't attract capital to a blockaded region. You can't build factories since you can't get access to reliable power, imports or exports. Literally Gaza has no choice but to accept oil money for jihad because otherwise they would all starve.
 
superrific said:
Yes it is. That was always the only possible outcome of the blockade. You can't attract capital to a blockaded region. You can't build factories since you can't get access to reliable power, imports or exports. Literally Gaza has no choice but to accept oil money for jihad because otherwise they would all starve.
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If Hamas had the capability to build elaborate tunnels under every part of Gaza, they also had the capability to use those materials and personnel to build things that would actually benefit the population there as a whole. They chose to build the tunnels.
 
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