Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[ZZLPHeels]

Any outside observer, whether press or investigators, is better than nothing. Israel wants to hide their war crimes. They want to control the narrative and play the victim. Or just the Hamas defense where anything they bomb is justified because, you know , Hamas.

That's possible. It is also possible that they don't want a bunch of foreigners running around a warzone where they are liable to get killed which would be a) bad for the foreigners and b) horrible PR for Israel.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

Any outside observer, whether press or investigators, is better than nothing. Israel wants to hide their war crimes. They want to control the narrative and play the victim. Or just the Hamas defense where anything they bomb is justified because, you know , Hamas.

I’m not sure Israel has any fucks left to give. They’re going to attempt to displace the entire Gaza population, and take over the entire strip. Who will stop them?

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I’m no sure Israel has any fucks left to give. They’re going to attempt to displace the entire Gaza population, and take over the entire strip. Who will stop them?

Have to wonder if Hamas could go back in time if they would scrap the 10/7 attack.

 

[RaiGuy]

Waltz's coordination with Netanyahu on Iran strike contributed to his firing - report | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[ZenMode]

In what aspect?

In the moral aspect.

The occupier is now the good guy? And before you say anything, I am not implying Hamas is the good guy. The only good people are the civilians caught in the crossfire.

What do you mean by occupier? Do you mean that Jews are living in a part of the world where they have had a continuous presence for thousands of years? Does the fact that some Muslims don't agree with the existence of Israel justify Jihadism? Why don't we see Native American suicide bombers? Or Christians in Pakistan going on murderous rampages?

After Israel was established in 1948, Jews were driven out of majority Muslim countries across the region. Is anyone talking about their "right of return"?

EDIT: as of 2023, it was reported that about 2 million Palestinians lived in Israel. I don't know if it's still happening, but there were, at one point, people who traveled from Gaza into Israel to work. In other words, Israel isn't kicking out Arabs or disallowing them from entering Israel. The only reason Gaza/Israel can't be like US/Canada or US/Mexico or an EU type of situation is Hamas/Jihadists/Muslim extremists.

 

[heelinhell]

Is this middle east conflict still a thing ?

I haven't seen much or any reporting about it so I assumed that true to his word, Trump resolved the conflict on day one and moved on to ending the war in Ukraine.

 

[lawtig02]

Is this middle east conflict still a thing ?

I haven't seen much or any reporting about it so I assumed that true to his word, Trump resolved the conflict on day one and moved on to ending the war in Ukraine.

That's certainly what you would think if you relied on Fox News.

 

[RaiGuy]

In the moral aspect.

What do you mean by occupier? Do you mean that Jews are living in a part of the world where they have had a continuous presence for thousands of years? Does the fact that some Muslims don't agree with the existence of Israel justify Jihadism? Why don't we see Native American suicide bombers? Or Christians in Pakistan going on murderous rampages?

After Israel was established in 1948, Jews were driven out of majority Muslim countries across the region. Is anyone talking about their "right of return"?

EDIT: as of 2023, it was reported that about 2 million Palestinians lived in Israel. I don't know if it's still happening, but there were, at one point, people who traveled from Gaza into Israel to work. In other words, Israel isn't kicking out Arabs or disallowing them from entering Israel. The only reason Gaza/Israel can't be like US/Canada or US/Mexico or an EU type of situation is Hamas/Jihadists/Muslim extremists.

Where do you get your information from? I don't mean that as a jerk, but genuinely curious. You ignore important parts of history.

Israel is an occupying state. That is a fact.

Your questions show that you are completely ignoring the Palestinian side. Do you think the attacks on Israel are caused because the people don't like Jews? Do you honestly think that? Or do you think it because Israel treats them like animals? Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis, even the ones living in Israel. You mention that there are Palestinians that travel from Gaza to Israel to work, but don't mention that Israel can decide to close the border one day and they aren't able to work. You don't mention how Israel humiliates them at checkpoints. You don't mention all the checkpoints that Israel has within the West Bank. What should be a 15 minute commute can take 4-5 hours. My friend's father is a respected professor at a university in the West Bank. He has to go through checkpoints to get to work. One day, the soldiers decide to mess with him and tell him that they won't let him pass unless he gets on his knees and barks like a dog. Another instance at a checkpoint is there was a pregnant woman and she was going into labor. Her family was trying to get her to the hospital, but of course, they had to go through a checkpoint. They refused to let her through. She died from complications. There are countless other stories like this. People with medical emergencies that are denied crossing through a checkpoint. These stories all happened in the West Bank way before October 7th.

Palestinians in Gaza have it even worse and were trapped in an open air prison. If they were fortunate to be allowed to leave, there was no guarantee that they could return. When you strip a population of their dignity and they have no future to look forward to, and then compound that with killing their families, you will breed extremists. It's not like Israel was minding it's business and were randomly attacked.

The only reason Gaza/West Bank/Israel can't be like US/Canada is because Israel is a racist, apartheid state. How it claim to be a democracy, when you have to be a white Jewish person to get full rights. Arab Jews are also treated like second class citizens.

I can understand how you come to your conclusions if you don't know the Palestinian side. It is difficult to see that view in the western world and it is rarely mentioned. However, if you researched the situation, you would understand what the cause is. It's not because Palestinians hate Jews. That's just how Israel frames it to garner sympathy.

 

[Batt Boy]

Is this middle east conflict still a thing ?

I haven't seen much or any reporting about it so I assumed that true to his word, Trump resolved the conflict on day one and moved on to ending the war in Ukraine.

After building the beautiful wall and having Mexico pay for it the first 24 hours

 

[ZenMode]

Where do you get your information from? I don't mean that as a jerk, but genuinely curious. You ignore important parts of history.

Israel is an occupying state. That is a fact.

Your questions show that you are completely ignoring the Palestinian side. Do you think the attacks on Israel are caused because the people don't like Jews? Do you honestly think that? Or do you think it because Israel treats them like animals? Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis, even the ones living in Israel. You mention that there are Palestinians that travel from Gaza to Israel to work, but don't mention that Israel can decide to close the border one day and they aren't able to work. You don't mention how Israel humiliates them at checkpoints. You don't mention all the checkpoints that Israel has within the West Bank. What should be a 15 minute commute can take 4-5 hours. My friend's father is a respected professor at a university in the West Bank. He has to go through checkpoints to get to work. One day, the soldiers decide to mess with him and tell him that they won't let him pass unless he gets on his knees and barks like a dog. Another instance at a checkpoint is there was a pregnant woman and she was going into labor. Her family was trying to get her to the hospital, but of course, they had to go through a checkpoint. They refused to let her through. She died from complications. There are countless other stories like this. People with medical emergencies that are denied crossing through a checkpoint. These stories all happened in the West Bank way before October 7th.

Palestinians in Gaza have it even worse and were trapped in an open air prison. If they were fortunate to be allowed to leave, there was no guarantee that they could return. When you strip a population of their dignity and they have no future to look forward to, and then compound that with killing their families, you will breed extremists. It's not like Israel was minding it's business and were randomly attacked.

The only reason Gaza/West Bank/Israel can't be like US/Canada is because Israel is a racist, apartheid state. How it claim to be a democracy, when you have to be a white Jewish person to get full rights. Arab Jews are also treated like second class citizens.

I can understand how you come to your conclusions if you don't know the Palestinian side. It is difficult to see that view in the western world and it is rarely mentioned. However, if you researched the situation, you would understand what the cause is. It's not because Palestinians hate Jews. That's just how Israel frames it to garner sympathy.

I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing...

Can you clarify what you mean by "Israel is an occupying state"

 

[4thgenheel]

The difference between Hamas/Jihadists and Israel is the difference between good and evil, not just "kinda, sorta" different.

not even close. hamas sucks and israel the genocidal thieves are not much better.

 

[superrific]

The only reason Gaza/Israel can't be like US/Canada or US/Mexico or an EU type of situation is Hamas/Jihadists/Muslim extremists.

True to form, lol. Ignorance never stops you, does it?

You might check out the view from the Israeli side. The right-wingers, currently and perhaps permanently ascendant, are not interested in those arrangements. They want to own all of Greater Israel. They haven't been stealing land and killing Palestinians in the West Bank because of Hamas. The settlers think they are doing God's work. Just like Hamas.

 

[RaiGuy]

I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing...

Can you clarify what you mean by "Israel is an occupying state"

They are illegally occupying portions of the West Bank and, have had a blockade on Gaza for years. They have continued to steal more land over the years.

 

[ZenMode]

They are illegally occupying portions of the West Bank and, have had a blockade on Gaza for years. They have continued to steal more land over the years.

Ok. You're not saying they're "occupying" the land that is Israel.

Do you believe that Hamas/Gaza/Jihadists would stop trying to destroy Israel if a) any stolen/disputed land was returned to Gaza and b) the blockade was 100% lifted and Gaza was left completely to their own devices?

 

[RaiGuy]

Ok. You're not saying they're "occupying" the land that is Israel.

Do you believe that Hamas/Gaza/Jihadists would stop trying to destroy Israel if a) any stolen/disputed land was returned to Gaza and b) the blockade was 100% lifted and Gaza was left completely to their own devices?

They would definitely lose support and the ability to recruit if the people are given the opportunity to have normal lives. That means treating them with dignity and without being treated as second class humans. If you are able to provide for your family and have a future, you wouldn't risk it all. However, if your family has been killed, you have no job, no money, no options to live, and Israel controls everything that you can consume (food, water, electricity, etc...), then being convinced to "fight back" makes sense. In talking to people that have escaped from Gaza, they have said the majority did not support what happened on Oct 7 and they knew they were in a lose-lose situation. They just want to live their lives and be left alone. Same thing in the West Bank. Israel has hundreds of checkpoints in the West Bank that make people's lives a living hell. Traveling in and out of the country is also a living hell. Even Americans with a Palestinian (or any Arab) background are harassed going into Israel and are subject to be denied entry. They conduct strip searches in the airport. This happens American citizens. Imagine how bad it is for actual Palestinian citizens that need to travel. All of this stuff compounds day after day after day. Any person living in situations like this would be expected to act out eventually. They've tried peaceful protests and were also shot at.

Put yourself in their position. What would you do if you had family members killed? Or if every move you make is restricted? Or if you are humiliated every day just for existing? Or if you're house is demolished? or if the Israeli soldiers allow the settlers to invade your land and burn your olive trees? What would you do?

 

[ZenMode]

They would definitely lose support and the ability to recruit if the people are given the opportunity to have normal lives. That means treating them with dignity and without being treated as second class humans. If you are able to provide for your family and have a future, you wouldn't risk it all. However, if your family has been killed, you have no job, no money, no options to live, and Israel controls everything that you can consume (food, water, electricity, etc...), then being convinced to "fight back" makes sense. In talking to people that have escaped from Gaza, they have said the majority did not support what happened on Oct 7 and they knew they were in a lose-lose situation. They just want to live their lives and be left alone. Same thing in the West Bank. Israel has hundreds of checkpoints in the West Bank that make people's lives a living hell. Traveling in and out of the country is also a living hell. Even Americans with a Palestinian (or any Arab) background are harassed going into Israel and are subject to be denied entry. They conduct strip searches in the airport. This happens American citizens. Imagine how bad it is for actual Palestinian citizens that need to travel. All of this stuff compounds day after day after day. Any person living in situations like this would be expected to act out eventually. They've tried peaceful protests and were also shot at.

Put yourself in their position. What would you do if you had family members killed? Or if every move you make is restricted? Or if you are humiliated every day just for existing? Or if you're house is demolished? or if the Israeli soldiers allow the settlers to invade your land and burn your olive trees? What would you do?

What makes you believe they would lose the ability to recruit? A poll of 18-24 year old Muslims, the prime age group for Muslim extremism/Jihadism, in England shows that 2/3 of them don't believe Israel has a right to exist. Half of ALL Muslims across all age groups say that Israel has no right to exist. Another poll showed that only 1/4 of Muslims believe Israel has a right to exist.

What makes you believe this isn't a religious issue? An unacceptable percentage of Muslims, even in Western European countries, don't want Israel to exist and I'd bet the farm it has virtually nothing to do with economics and almost entirely to do with Jerusalem being the holy land where, among other things, Muhammed ascended to heaven.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Hamas is more than willing to sacrifice civilians in war by using them as human shields or directly use women and children in battle? Do you not believe their willingness to do that is based on religious beliefs of the eternal benefits of martyrdom? They aren't just fighting for their freedom. They are literally calling home to brag to their parents about the number of Jews they killed.

And what is the claim of an the "open air prison" based on? Is it the number of beach resorts/hotels in Gaza? Is it the Capital Mall that puts many US malls to shame? Or is it the huge water park? What definition of "prison" does this fit in to?

 

[RaiGuy]

What makes you believe they would lose the ability to recruit? A poll of 18-24 year old Muslims, the prime age group for Muslim extremism/Jihadism, in England shows that 2/3 of them don't believe Israel has a right to exist. Half of ALL Muslims across all age groups say that Israel has no right to exist. Another poll showed that only 1/4 of Muslims believe Israel has a right to exist.

I am guessing the top reason they don't want Israel to exist is because of its history and ongoing oppression of Palestinians. If that stops, then that number goes down.

What makes you believe this isn't a religious issue? An unacceptable percentage of Muslims, even in Western European countries, don't want Israel to exist and I'd bet the farm it has virtually nothing to do with economics and almost entirely to do with Jerusalem being the holy land where, among other things, Muhammed ascended to heaven.

Religion is used as a tool for the extremists, but it is not the root cause of the issue. Muslims, Jews, and Christians were living together in that region before the creation of Israel. The issues erupted with the formation of Zionism and the British handing over land that already had people living in it. Then, nearly one million Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) were displaced from their homeland and there were several dozen massacres. The issue isn't a hatred between the religions, but religions used to cause hatred between groups. There are many Jews that are against Zionism and protest Israel.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Hamas is more than willing to sacrifice civilians in war by using them as human shields or directly use women and children in battle? Do you not believe their willingness to do that is based on religious beliefs of the eternal benefits of martyrdom? They aren't just fighting for their freedom. They are literally calling home to brag to their parents about the number of Jews they killed.

I am not understanding your point here. Are you saying that Hamas is "more willing to sacrifice civilians" because of Islam? I don't recall any Islamic beliefs where that is stated. Hamas already does not follow Islamic beliefs because they target civilians. I do not understand their mindset, so I am not able to reason what they're doing. However, Hamas is a stated terrorist group while Israel is a "democratic state" that should operate with higher standards. Do you not see an issue with the Israeli soldiers that brag about the Palestinian children they killed? Bragging about killing civilians should be condemned on both sides.

And what is the claim of an the "open air prison" based on? Is it the number of beach resorts/hotels in Gaza? Is it the Capital Mall that puts many US malls to shame? Or is it the huge water park? What definition of "prison" does this fit in to?

Let's say you live in Gaza and got a scholarship to attend a university in Canada. You get your paperwork done and it's time to travel there. Can you hop on a plane from Gaza international and leave? No, Israel destroyed that and will shoot down any plane flying in to Gaza. Oh, then let's go by boat since the Mediterranean Sea is right there. However, you can't. Israel blockades Gaza's waters and no ship can enter or leave Gaza without Israeli approval.

The only other option is by land. Maybe you get lucky and either Israel or Egypt will let you through, but they're very strict in who is and isn't allowed to leave. If they're feeling nice, they might let you through that day, otherwise, you are SOL. So even though you have an acceptance to a university, permission from both Canada and Gaza to travel to Canada, you have no way of getting there.

Then, say you get lucky and are able to leave. Your grandmother gets sick and you want to see her so you fly back. This time, however, they decide you can't leave. You are delayed a couple months and then you lose your scholarship. What now?

So, there is no freedom of movement. That's not even mentioning that Israel controls everything that can come in to Gaza (including medical supplies, food, etc..). They also control the water and the electricity.

But yeah, other than that, they have complete freedom smh

 

[ZenMode]

I am guessing the top reason they don't want Israel to exist is because of its history and ongoing oppression of Palestinians. If that stops, then that number goes down.


Religion is used as a tool for the extremists, but it is not the root cause of the issue. Muslims, Jews, and Christians were living together in that region before the creation of Israel. The issues erupted with the formation of Zionism and the British handing over land that already had people living in it. Then, nearly one million Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) were displaced from their homeland and there were several dozen massacres. The issue isn't a hatred between the religions, but religions used to cause hatred between groups. There are many Jews that are against Zionism and protest Israel.


I am not understanding your point here. Are you saying that Hamas is "more willing to sacrifice civilians" because of Islam? I don't recall any Islamic beliefs where that is stated. Hamas already does not follow Islamic beliefs because they target civilians. I do not understand their mindset, so I am not able to reason what they're doing. However, Hamas is a stated terrorist group while Israel is a "democratic state" that should operate with higher standards. Do you not see an issue with the Israeli soldiers that brag about the Palestinian children they killed? Bragging about killing civilians should be condemned on both sides.


Let's say you live in Gaza and got a scholarship to attend a university in Canada. You get your paperwork done and it's time to travel there. Can you hop on a plane from Gaza international and leave? No, Israel destroyed that and will shoot down any plane flying in to Gaza. Oh, then let's go by boat since the Mediterranean Sea is right there. However, you can't. Israel blockades Gaza's waters and no ship can enter or leave Gaza without Israeli approval.

The only other option is by land. Maybe you get lucky and either Israel or Egypt will let you through, but they're very strict in who is and isn't allowed to leave. If they're feeling nice, they might let you through that day, otherwise, you are SOL. So even though you have an acceptance to a university, permission from both Canada and Gaza to travel to Canada, you have no way of getting there.

Then, say you get lucky and are able to leave. Your grandmother gets sick and you want to see her so you fly back. This time, however, they decide you can't leave. You are delayed a couple months and then you lose your scholarship. What now?

So, there is no freedom of movement. That's not even mentioning that Israel controls everything that can come in to Gaza (including medical supplies, food, etc..). They also control the water and the electricity.

But yeah, other than that, they have complete freedom smh

I think you're continuing to wrongly downplay the influence of religion as it relates to Jews and Israel's existence but, until there's a 2 state solution put into place and that reality is brought to light, there's no reason to debate that. Giving Gaza complete freedom would, IMO, only bring the Islamic fundamentalists/terrorists/Jihadists closer to what I believe is their goal of wiping out Israel.

Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is reason for persecution of Christians in Pakistan. Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is why 130 students being slaughtered in Peshawar. I would argue that Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is the reason Pakistan even exists today. Civilized countries around the world are in an ongoing fight against Islamic fundamentalism/Jihadism/terrorism and it's not the moderate muslims who live in Gaza and want to go to school in Canada that are behind it. It's the extremists/Jihadists who are driven almost exclusively by their religious extremism. They're the ones who have no issue intentionally getting citizens, including women and children killed, because they believe they're helping them get to Heaven. Do you think the citizens who cheer and help to attack innocent Jewish civilian hostages aren't motivated by religious views? Do you believe that all the countries/people, including mostly other Muslims, who are victimized by Islamic extremism is due to socio-economic issues? Do you think the guy who called his family to brag about slaughtering 10 Jews and stealing their cell phone is driven by socio-economic concerns? Is he looking to go to college in Canada and then come back to visit his sick grandmother?

Clearly not.

Islamic extremist/fundamentalist/Jihadists are as evil as they are because they truly believe they have nothing to lose. If they die as a martyr, they go to heaven for an eternity of bliss. If they get Muslim civilians killed, they're only expediting their eternity of bliss and the Jewish hostages that are killed or the innocent kids at the concert on October 7th... well, they're just getting what they deserve.

But, yah, it's too bad that a Gaza student can't go to college in Canada. I don't know how he's going to survive.

 

[RaiGuy]

I think you're continuing to wrongly downplay the influence of religion as it relates to Jews and Israel's existence but, until there's a 2 state solution put into place and that reality is brought to light, there's no reason to debate that. Giving Gaza complete freedom would, IMO, only bring the Islamic fundamentalists/terrorists/Jihadists closer to what I believe is their goal of wiping out Israel.

Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is reason for persecution of Christians in Pakistan. Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is why 130 students being slaughtered in Peshawar. I would argue that Islamic extremism/fundamentalism is the reason Pakistan even exists today. Civilized countries around the world are in an ongoing fight against Islamic fundamentalism/Jihadism/terrorism and it's not the moderate muslims who live in Gaza and want to go to school in Canada that are behind it. It's the extremists/Jihadists who are driven almost exclusively by their religious extremism. They're the ones who have no issue intentionally getting citizens, including women and children killed, because they believe they're helping them get to Heaven. Do you think the citizens who cheer and help to attack innocent Jewish civilian hostages aren't motivated by religious views? Do you believe that all the countries/people, including mostly other Muslims, who are victimized by Islamic extremism is due to socio-economic issues? Do you think the guy who called his family to brag about slaughtering 10 Jews and stealing their cell phone is driven by socio-economic concerns? Is he looking to go to college in Canada and then come back to visit his sick grandmother?

Clearly not.

Islamic extremist/fundamentalist/Jihadists are as evil as they are because they truly believe they have nothing to lose. If they die as a martyr, they go to heaven for an eternity of bliss. If they get Muslim civilians killed, they're only expediting their eternity of bliss and the Jewish hostages that are killed or the innocent kids at the concert on October 7th... well, they're just getting what they deserve.

But, yah, it's too bad that a Gaza student can't go to college in Canada. I don't know how he's going to survive.

So, you're saying the root cause of this is "Islamic fundamentalism/Jihadism/terrorism" and yet not once do I see the word occupation or oppression. You don't think kicking people out of their land and oppressing them would cause some conflict? lol
You speak about terrorism, but you don't mention the terrorist attacks by Jewish extremists in the 40s. But I guess those are not "terrorist attacks" because they weren't done by Islamic fundamentalist/Jihadists.
Then you bring up Pakistan. What caused the rifts in that region? Don't you think the British partition separating India into 3 countries by religion had something to do with it? Yet again, you only focus on Muslims.

And to your last sentence, you're basically admitting it's fine for all Palestinians to be collectively punished because of fear of Islamic fundamentalist. If you don't see a problem with that statement, I don't know what to tell you.

All you see believe is that BS that Israel spits out saying that they are the victims because Hamas wants to wipe them out.

 

[ZenMode]

So, you're saying the root cause of this is "Islamic fundamentalism/Jihadism/terrorism" and yet not once do I see the word occupation or oppression.

I'm saying Muslim extremists/Jihadists/terrorists will do the evil things they do, because of their religious beliefs. If Gaza was a completely sovereign state, they would keep doing the evil things they do.

You don't think kicking people out of their land and oppressing them would cause some conflict? lol

I don't know. How many Native American suicide bombers have you seen? How many oppressed Christians in Pakistan have gone on a killing spree? What about the Tibetan Buddhists in China? Are they taking hostages and sex slaves?

You speak about terrorism, but you don't mention the terrorist attacks by Jewish extremists in the 40s. But I guess those are not "terrorist attacks" because they weren't done by Islamic fundamentalist/Jihadists.

Jewish extremists are the exception and aren't a fundamental aspect of their religion.

Then you bring up Pakistan. What caused the rifts in that region? Don't you think the British partition separating India into 3 countries by religion had something to do with it? Yet again, you only focus on Muslims.

I do because, again, if you look around the world, there's a commonality with a lot of the terrorism/violence and it's not Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Catholics, Atheists, etc.

And to your last sentence, you're basically admitting it's fine for all Palestinians to be collectively punished because of fear of Islamic fundamentalist. If you don't see a problem with that statement, I don't know what to tell you.

I think Israel would love to live next door to a sane and rational sovereign country, but they can't afford to leave Gaza to its own devices for reasons that are obvious.

All you see believe is that BS that Israel spits out saying that they are the victims because Hamas wants to wipe them out.

I'm almost exclusively talking about the evil of Muslim extremism. My only belief is that, compared to Jihadists, Israel/Israelis/IDF are undoubtedly the "good" guys.