Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[Geisterfahrer]

Speaking of Israeli intelligence, I continue to be amazed at how successfully the World Centeal Kitchen story was buried.

I don’t think it was buried so much as forgotten about with the next atrocity.

 

[RaiGuy]

Hamas embeds itself in and under Palestinian civilian infrastructure. Hamas does not typically wear uniforms. In a war it is often impossible to distinguish between the two. That’s by Hamas’s design. It is impossible for a war to be conducted with zero or even minimal civilian casualties when Hamas intentionally puts Palestinian civilians at risk.

That is the excuse that Israel can use whenever it kills civilians and no one questions them on it. However, what makes them more guilty is that they have one of the best intelligence in the world. Plus, Gaza was already closed off and heavily surveilled. They know a lot more than they say and can be precise in their attacks when they want to be. One of my friends that lived in Gaza had moved to a new building a few years ago. Before they moved, they had asked to confirm that no Hamas officials lived there. However, it turns out there was one allegedly living on the floor above them. Israel was able to take him out and, while their house was damaged, they were luckily not injured. Then, after Oct 7th, Israel decided to bomb the whole building and take it out. Luckily, they were not in the house when it happened, but many of their neighbors died. This is one example of how Israel chose to do maximum damage when they had already taken out the target earlier. I know that's one anecdote, but this happened countless times. And anytime civilians are massacred, Israel will claim that they were targeting a Hamas official, without providing any proof or allowing investigators in. This isn't anything new, it has been happening for 77 years (as today marks 77 years of the Nakba), but before Hamas, there were other excuses. It's not nothing new, and anyone that has been paying attention from the start would understand this.

 

[farce©]

I really get tired of the apologists for the Israeli government here pretending there are good guys among the combatants in this war. Yes, Hamas sucks but the Israeli government doesn’t occupy the high ground either. Calling out Israeli atrocities is not support for Hamas nor is it antisemitic. War criminals are war criminals.

 

[Healing]

I don’t think you support Hamas. I do think you have parroted a few of their talking points, but that doesn’t mean that you support them.

Talking points often overlap between reasonable and shit people. Rai is far from a Hamas mockingbird, and yet, occasionally the notes will overlap. So what.

On this thread, your talking points almost entirely overlap with the Israeli Government, and they're the ones actually engaged in a project of ethnic cleaning. There's ample reason to believe you're a proponent of ethic cleansing (i.e. because you consistently defend the actions of those committing ethic cleansing) while very little reason to believe Rai supports Hamas.

 

[Patb78]

Rai is different from all the rest of us involved in this discussion. He, to use a sports analogy, has a dog in this fight. He is more connected to what’s happening in Gaza than anyone else. That’s why I believe him. Like anyone in his situation he might engage a little bit in hyperbole. But still, he is trying to provide us with the best info about what is happening in Gaza.
Rai, I’m glad you are on this board providing us with your insights.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Talking points often overlap between reasonable and shit people. Rai is far from a Hamas mockingbird, and yet, occasionally the notes will overlap. So what.

On this thread, your talking points almost entirely overlap with the Israeli Government, and they're the ones actually engaged in a project of ethnic cleaning. There's ample reason to believe you're a proponent of ethic cleansing (i.e. because you consistently defend the actions of those committing ethic cleansing) while very little reason to believe Rai supports Hamas.

I’ve been critical of Israel plenty here, and have said there are no good guys in this war. I’ve also laid out the facts. You may not like the facts, but that doesn’t make them go away. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. Hamas hides in and under civilian infrastructure. Hamas has boasted about trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. Hamas has stated that its goal is to exterminate every Jew in Israel. Hamas has launched thousands of missiles blindly into Israel. None of this is hyperbole. When you are fighting a war against an enemy that actively tries to kill as many of its own civilians as possible, collateral damage is going to be massive. After 10/7, Israel had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s ability to attack again in any meaningful manner.

 

[ZenMode]

Your problem is they were 20 months in and you still can’t distinguish between Hamas and Palestinian civilians. You can be anti-Israel and not pro-Hamas. You can be pro-Palestinian and not pro-Hamas. You have yet to understand that because every time I criticize Israel, you immediately insinuate that I’m supporting Hamas.

"You can be pro-Palestinian and not pro-Hamas."

Which, based on polling, means you're "pro" a population of people of which 72% support terrorism, the murder of Israeli civilians and elimination of Israel.

 

[RaiGuy]

"You can be pro-Palestinian and not pro-Hamas."

Which, based on polling, means you're "pro" a population of people of which 72% support terrorism, the murder of Israeli civilians and elimination of Israel.

Ah ok, so you are using the Israeli argument that they can all be targeted because they probably support Hamas. Interestingly, the article you posted about this poll does not show the actual wording of the question. It also doesn't give the number of people polled. Anyone with any kind of science background would tell you that they need to provide that data to be transparent. I doubt they were able to reach enough people to poll to make a generalized statement that you are making.

 

[ZenMode]

Ah ok, so you are using the Israeli argument that they can all be targeted because they probably support Hamas.

You keep saying this, even though facts don't support the claim that Israel is targeting civilians. The facts show the opposite.

Interestingly, the article you posted about this poll does not show the actual wording of the question. It also doesn't give the number of people polled. Anyone with any kind of science background would tell you that they need to provide that data to be transparent. I doubt they were able to reach enough people to poll to make a generalized statement that you are making.

If it was a poll showing that 72% of Palestinians didn't support Hamas' actions on October 7th, I suspect your concern about wording would be non-existent.

 

[RaiGuy]

You keep saying this, even though facts don't support the claim that Israel is targeting civilians. The facts show the opposite.

What facts? All the video footage of them literally targeting civilians? The ones where they bomb refugees in a tent city? The one where they bomb women and children, and once people go to help, they drop another bomb? Or is it when they ambushed ambulances and executed all the medical workers? Or maybe it was when they sniped all the children? Or when they attacked the World Food Kitchen envoy? Or when 6 year old Hind Rajab and her family that was trying to flee in a car and then an Israeli army tank shot at them, killing her aunt, uncle, and 4 cousins. Her 15 year old cousin and Hind survived the initial blast. They called for paramedics and waited hours. The Gaza ministry coordinated with Israeli officials to allow the ambulance through. Israel proceeded to destroy the ambulance and kill the paramedic workers. Then, they turned their guns on the car, killing 6 year old Hind and her 15 year old cousin. 335 bullet holes. But yeah, they aren't targeting civilians. You believe that lie. There are many, many more examples I could give. Most are rarely mentioned here. Most also have video evidence (and many shared by Israeli soldiers with others to brag), so you can't make up an excuse that they're fabricated.

If it was a poll showing that 72% of Palestinians didn't support Hamas' actions on October 7th, I suspect your concern about wording would be non-existent.

I would say the same thing. Polls without the raw data are meaningless. Also, polling people during a genocide isn't quite the best time to ask questions as the responses would be skewed.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

True. I just remain amazed at how quickly coverage centered on the need to protect aid workers while ignoring that the target wasn’t Hamas.

I think Americans just find it harder to sympathize with the Palestinians for a number of reasons. We've dealt with a lot of Islamist terror over the past couple of decades yet I can't remember an instance of a radial Jew killing a bunch of innocent Americans or Europeans. We launched wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that also had a large amount of civilian casualties. It is easier to relate to a western-style democracy that is fighting a war against Islamist terrorists because we've been in a similar boat for a while now, even if that democratic ally goes over the top at times just as we did at times in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[RaiGuy]

I think Americans just find it harder to sympathize with the Palestinians for a number of reasons. We've dealt with a lot of Islamist terror over the past couple of decades yet I can't remember an instance of a radial Jew killing a bunch of innocent Americans or Europeans. We launched wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that also had a large amount of civilian casualties. It is easier to relate to a western-style democracy that is fighting a war against Islamist terrorists because we've been in a similar boat for a while now, even if that democratic ally goes over the top at times just as we did at times in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The problem is that people lump them together and they also ignore that there are Palestinian Christians as well. The Palestinian issue is not the result of "Islamist terrorists"

 

[Zoo_View]

I’m guessing that one reason Israeli-committed atrocities disappear from view relatively quickly is that Israel isn’t exactly letting independent journalists and war correspondents into Gaza.

Another reason is it is atrocity after atrocity.

 

[RaiGuy]

I’m guessing that one reason Israeli-committed atrocities disappear from view relatively quickly is that Israel isn’t exactly letting independent journalists and war correspondents into Gaza.

Another reason is its atrocity after atrocity.

And the number of journalists that they have been targeted and assassinated is unprecedented (more killed than any other conflict)

 

[ZenMode]

What facts? All the video footage of them literally targeting civilians? The ones where they bomb refugees in a tent city? The one where they bomb women and children, and once people go to help, they drop another bomb? Or is it when they ambushed ambulances and executed all the medical workers? Or maybe it was when they sniped all the children? Or when they attacked the World Food Kitchen envoy? Or when 6 year old Hind Rajab and her family that was trying to flee in a car and then an Israeli army tank shot at them, killing her aunt, uncle, and 4 cousins. Her 15 year old cousin and Hind survived the initial blast. They called for paramedics and waited hours. The Gaza ministry coordinated with Israeli officials to allow the ambulance through. Israel proceeded to destroy the ambulance and kill the paramedic workers. Then, they turned their guns on the car, killing 6 year old Hind and her 15 year old cousin. 335 bullet holes. But yeah, they aren't targeting civilians. You believe that lie. There are many, many more examples I could give. Most are rarely mentioned here. Most also have video evidence (and many shared by Israeli soldiers with others to brag), so you can't make up an excuse that they're fabricated.

The fact that, in an area of land where there are 15,000 people per square mile, only about 50k have been killed in nearly two years of fighting. I've said before, Hamas killed 1000 civilians in a few hours with knives and hand-held guns. How many do you think Israel could kill in 20 months, with true military weaponry and explosives, if they were targeting civilians or even if they were just indifferent to civilians? That's an honest question. If Hamas kept their pace of civilian murders, they would have killed about 3,000 in a day. That works out to well over 1 million in 20 months if they even come close to that pace. How many do you believe Israel, with bombs, missiles, tanks, grenades, etc could kill in 20 months if they were truly targeting? Let's just say that weren't targeting, but were completely indifferent to civilian life when bombing, shooting, etc. How many do you think would be dead by now?

The answer to that question matters and is among the facts I'm referring to.

Plus, we know that Israel IS proactively warning civilians. One of the most recent hospital bombings, the doctors inside the hospital said that they received a phone call warning them to get out within 20 minutes. I've seen videos of Palestinians playing the phone calls they received warning them to get out of a specific area.

That doesn't mean that there aren't bad IDF who do terrible things. That doesn't mean there aren't mistakes made, like when IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages who were trying to surrender to them, but the implication that Israel/IDF is remotely in the same ballpark as Hamas, morally speaking, is completely unfounded.

Hamas' goal is to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible and to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible for PR benefit.

 

[RaiGuy]

The fact that, in an area of land where there are 15,000 people per square mile, only about 50k have been killed in nearly two years of fighting. I've said before, Hamas killed 1000 civilians in a few hours with knives and hand-held guns. How many do you think Israel could kill in 20 months, with true military weaponry and explosives, if they were targeting civilians or even if they were just indifferent to civilians? That's an honest question. If Hamas kept their pace of civilian murders, they would have killed about 3,000 in a day. That works out to well over 1 million in 20 months if they even come close to that pace. How many do you believe Israel, with bombs, missiles, tanks, grenades, etc could kill in 20 months if they were truly targeting? Let's just say that weren't targeting, but were completely indifferent to civilian life when bombing, shooting, etc. How many do you think would be dead by now?

The answer to that question matters and is among the facts I'm referring to.

Plus, we know that Israel IS proactively warning civilians. One of the most recent hospital bombings, the doctors inside the hospital said that they received a phone call warning them to get out within 20 minutes. I've seen videos of Palestinians playing the phone calls they received warning them to get out of a specific area.

That doesn't mean that there aren't bad IDF who do terrible things. That doesn't mean there aren't mistakes made, like when IDF killed 3 Israeli hostages who were trying to surrender to them, but the implication that Israel/IDF is remotely in the same ballpark as Hamas, morally speaking, is completely unfounded.

Hamas' goal is to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible and to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible for PR benefit.

So your argument is that Israel hasn't killed enough civilians for them to be targeting them? Does that mean if Hamas had killed 10 people on Oct 7th, then they weren't really targeting civilians because more didn't die?

The idea of Israel "proactively warning" civilians is laughable. So, you're a doctor at a hospital. You got a call to clear it within 20 minutes. Tell me, how the hell are you supposed to move all the patients and staff in that long? Mind you, the roads outside aren't safe either because Israel bombs blocks at a time, not just one little section. Secondly, if, by a miracle, they are able to move the ICU and NICU patients out of the building, where will they take them? The other hospitals aren't working. Ambulances are limited and routinely targeted for strikes. Do they just put them in the courtyard? Again, where is the common sense? Israel only pretends to care so people like you will believe it. They are so generous that they gave the hospital 20 whole minutes to empty out.

To think that Israel is morally superior to Hamas is a joke. Both are trash and worse than trash. You either must not pay attention to what they do, or your head is in the sand. Israel has been doing this shit far before Hamas existed. But yet again, you only care about Oct 7th.

 

[farce©]

You're wasting your breath, dude.

 

[ZenMode]

So your argument is that Israel hasn't killed enough civilians for them to be targeting them?

My argument that the numbers clearly show that IDF is not only not targeting civilians, they are actively trying to avoid civilians.

Does that mean if Hamas had killed 10 people on Oct 7th, then they weren't really targeting civilians because more didn't die?

The intent is what matters and Hamas was clearly targeting civilians.

The idea of Israel "proactively warning" civilians is laughable. So, you're a doctor at a hospital. You got a call to clear it within 20 minutes. Tell me, how the hell are you supposed to move all the patients and staff in that long?

It's not laughable because it works and has worked throughout the war. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a fact that Israel is not only not targeting civilians and is actively trying to minimize civilians deaths.

According to the diocese, patients and health workers were only given 20 minutes to evacuate before two missiles struck, destroying the hospital's genetic laboratory and damaging the pharmacy, emergency department, and the neighboring St. Philip’s church.
....................................

In the rushed evacuation, critically ill patients had to be moved into the streets in the cold. While no one died in blast itself, the hurried evacuation resulted in three deaths, including that of a 12-year-old boy who was being treated for a head injury.

'We Are In Complete Shock': Israel Bombs Last Fully Functioning Hospital in North Gaza | Common Dreams

The Diocese of Jerusalem, which administers the hospital, said it was "appalled at the bombing of the hospital now for the fifth time since the beginning of the war in 2023—and this time on the morning of Palm Sunday and the beginning of Holy Week."

www.commondreams.org

Mind you, the roads outside aren't safe either because Israel bombs blocks at a time, not just one little section. Secondly, if, by a miracle, they are able to move the ICU and NICU patients out of the building, where will they take them? The other hospitals aren't working. Ambulances are limited and routinely targeted for strikes. Do they just put them in the courtyard? Again, where is the common sense? Israel only pretends to care so people like you will believe it. They are so generous that they gave the hospital 20 whole minutes to empty out.

Again, I don't know the logistics but there is ample evidence that whatever Israel is doing is clearly minimizing civilian deaths.

To think that Israel is morally superior to Hamas is a joke. Both are trash and worse than trash. You either must not pay attention to what they do, or your head is in the sand. Israel has been doing this shit far before Hamas existed. But yet again, you only care about Oct 7th.

Again, Hamas used a surprise attack and gave zero warning to civilians because killing civilians was their goal.

Israel is not targeting civilians, is actively trying to minimize civilians deaths and has been successfully minimizing civilian deaths for the last 20 months.

If that isn't moral superiority, then what is?

 

[superrific]

The fact that, in an area of land where there are 15,000 people per square mile, only about 50k have been killed in nearly two years of fighting.

Sigh. The number I've seen is more like 65K but that's beside the point. First, are you doing that weird Covid anti-vaxx thing where you pretend that death is the only measure of suffering? There have also been injuries well into six digits.

Nobody said that Israel was intending to kill every Palestinian. But give me a fucking break with this "it's only >50K dead and >100K injured." There were a total of 40K civilians killed during the entirety of the Afghanistan war. In the more than a decade of the Vietnam War, there were about 400K dead, and that was a full fledged military bombing campaign against a well-armed organized enemy army and the US was not exactly trying very hard to reduce civilian casualties.

There were 41M people living in Vietnam in 1970. There are 2.1M in Gaza. And yet the casualties per year in both conflicts is roughly the same. So the Gaza shelling is literally 20 times more deadly than the US in Vietnam. All the mines we planted, forests we napalmed or Agent Oranged, artillery shelling -- and the civilian casualty rate was 2000% less than in Gaza.

Just STFU about Israeli restraint. Let's put it this way: I have no idea if all branches or sub-branches of the IDF are targeting or not avoiding civilians, but some of them clearly are and they are doing massive damage.

 

[superrific]

Israel is not targeting civilians, is actively trying to minimize civilians deaths and has been successfully minimizing civilian deaths for the last 20 months.

Among the many things you do not know, apparently, is the meaning of the word minimizing.

If you think 60K civilian deaths is "minimizing" then you're both more depraved and stupider than I thought.