Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[superrific]

The fact that, in an area of land where there are 15,000 people per square mile, only about 50k have been killed in nearly two years of fighting.

Sigh. The number I've seen is more like 65K but that's beside the point. First, are you doing that weird Covid anti-vaxx thing where you pretend that death is the only measure of suffering? There have also been injuries well into six digits.

Nobody said that Israel was intending to kill every Palestinian. But give me a fucking break with this "it's only >50K dead and >100K injured." There were a total of 40K civilians killed during the entirety of the Afghanistan war. In the more than a decade of the Vietnam War, there were about 400K dead, and that was a full fledged military bombing campaign against a well-armed organized enemy army and the US was not exactly trying very hard to reduce civilian casualties.

There were 41M people living in Vietnam in 1970. There are 2.1M in Gaza. And yet the casualties per year in both conflicts is roughly the same. So the Gaza shelling is literally 20 times more deadly than the US in Vietnam. All the mines we planted, forests we napalmed or Agent Oranged, artillery shelling -- and the civilian casualty rate was 2000% less than in Gaza.

Just STFU about Israeli restraint. Let's put it this way: I have no idea if all branches or sub-branches of the IDF are targeting or not avoiding civilians, but some of them clearly are and they are doing massive damage.

 

[superrific]

Israel is not targeting civilians, is actively trying to minimize civilians deaths and has been successfully minimizing civilian deaths for the last 20 months.

Among the many things you do not know, apparently, is the meaning of the word minimizing.

If you think 60K civilian deaths is "minimizing" then you're both more depraved and stupider than I thought.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I don't think Israel is trying to minimize Palestinian deaths. I don't think they are trying to maximize them, either. I think they are largely indifferent, as is Hamas. The Palestinian civilians are caught in the middle between two larger powers that don't give a damn about them.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

I think Americans just find it harder to sympathize with the Palestinians for a number of reasons. We've dealt with a lot of Islamist terror over the past couple of decades yet I can't remember an instance of a radial Jew killing a bunch of innocent Americans or Europeans. We launched wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that also had a large amount of civilian casualties. It is easier to relate to a western-style democracy that is fighting a war against Islamist terrorists because we've been in a similar boat for a while now, even if that democratic ally goes over the top at times just as we did at times in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But we apparently easily forget Israeli radicals who kill Arabs or other Jews like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir.

 

[Calheel]

After 10/7, Israel had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s ability to attack again in any meaningful manner.

Is it actually accomplishing that goal? Even if every Hamas member is killed, all tunnels destroyed, and all weapons seized, the Palestinian anger and resentment will only be stronger than ever. How many more militants have been created by Israel's response? What is the future solution for Gaza? Or the Palestinian issue as a whole?

Israel has had more or less the same playbook since 1948, and especially since 1972. If they hit us, we will hit them 10 times harder. And it has yet to result in any greater security for Israel.

There are a number of different ways Israel could have responded after 10/7. I am not convinced that the path it chose in any way prevented Israel from being attacked "again in any meaningful manner."

 

[ZZLPHeels]

But we apparently easily forget Israeli radicals who kill Arabs or other Jews like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir.

Two instances of Jewish terror from the early 90s overwhelmed by countless of acts of Islamist terror since. And, not to diminish their atrocities, but those two people did not attack Americans or Europeans so they did not make westerners fearful in the way that jihadists have.

 

[ZenMode]

Among the many things you do not know, apparently, is the meaning of the word minimizing.

"Minimize" within reasonable limitations of the situation they're fighting in. Sure, they could just let Hamas murder a thousand of Israeli civilians and not respond. That would be absolute minimizing.

If you think 60K civilian deaths is "minimizing" then you're both more depraved and stupider than I thought.

Again, within the limitations of the sitution. The situation being a) there are 15,000 civilians per square mile, b) they're fighting against a "military" that intentionally uses civilians as human shields and civilian buildings as military locations and c) they're fighting against a military that wants to maximize civilian deaths because they know they are likely to win the PR battle with people like you and others on this forum and d) some relevant portion of the civilian population, for religious reasons, has no concern about dying.

Why is Israel dropping pamphlets from the sky to warn people? Why are they texting and calling civilians to warn them to leave? What is the purpose of those actions if they are unconcerned about civilian deaths?

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Is it actually accomplishing that goal? Even if every Hamas member is killed, all tunnels destroyed, and all weapons seized, the Palestinian anger and resentment will only be stronger than ever. How many more militants have been created by Israel's response? What is the future solution for Gaza? Or the Palestinian issue as a whole?

Israel has had more or less the same playbook since 1948, and especially since 1972. If they hit us, we will hit them 10 times harder. And it has yet to result in any greater security for Israel.

There are a number of different ways Israel could have responded after 10/7. I am not convinced that the path it chose in any way prevented Israel from being attacked "again in any meaningful manner."

From a tactical standpoint, it doesn't matter how angry people are if they have no meaningful way to strike back. From a strategic standpoint, anger in 2025 does not necessarily have to translate into conflict in 2030. See: Japan and Germany post WWII. Of course, for the latter statement to hold true the Palestinians must be given the same assistance with rebuilding and assimilating into the global economic and political system that the Germans and Japanese received in 1945 and onward.

 

[Calheel]

From a tactical standpoint, it doesn't matter how angry people are if they have no meaningful way to strike back. From a strategic standpoint, anger in 2025 does not necessarily have to translate into conflict in 2030. See: Japan and Germany post WWII. Of course, for the latter statement to hold true the Palestinians must be given the same assistance with rebuilding and assimilating into the global system that the Germans and Japanese received in 1945 and onward.

How do you figure they will have no way to strike back?

It is fantasy to believe that Israel can block all weapons from entering Palestinian areas and somehow construct a wall/buffer area big enough to give it real protection.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

How do you figure they will have no way to strike back?

I posted an article here several months ago from the NYT that went into how American and Israeli intelligence experts believe that Hamas's military wing has been crippled and that they are unable to launch a 10/7-style attack anymore. They can continue to launch rockets and there's no reason to believe that small-scale attacks won't continue, but this war has devastated them and their allies.

 

[superrific]

Why is Israel dropping pamphlets from the sky to warn people? Why are they texting and calling civilians to warn them to leave? What is the purpose of those actions if they are unconcerned about civilian deaths?

P.R.

The notices are pathetic. First, they sometimes tell people to leave an area, and then the IDF attacks the people as they are leaving, and then the IDF levels the places where the civilians fled. So some % of the "notice" is actually just a trap.

But more importantly, the notices are useless. As you said, 15K people per sq mile (that's an exaggeration but whatever). Where are you going to go on half an hour's notice? There are few roads because they've been bombed. There's no gas because blockade. There are people wounded from previous attacks. What the fuck is someone supposed to do when they are told they have half an hour. Go into the basement and hope the rubble doesn't collapse on you is what they can do.

Your incessant JCDing of a genocide -- which, at this point, it unambiguously is -- just fuck it there are no words.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

P.R.

The notices are pathetic. First, they sometimes tell people to leave an area, and then the IDF attacks the people as they are leaving, and then the IDF levels the places where the civilians fled. So some % of the "notice" is actually just a trap.

But more importantly, the notices are useless. As you said, 15K people per sq mile (that's an exaggeration but whatever). Where are you going to go on half an hour's notice? There are few roads because they've been bombed. There's no gas because blockade. There are people wounded from previous attacks. What the fuck is someone supposed to do when they are told they have half an hour. Go into the basement and hope the rubble doesn't collapse on you is what they can do.

Your incessant JCDing of a genocide -- which, at this point, it unambiguously is -- just fuck it there are no words.

I think if I were warned that the building I was currently in was going to be destroyed in 30 minutes, I'd walk as far away as I could from that building. Doesn't seem like a hard concept.

 

[superrific]

I think if I were warned that the building I was currently in was going to be destroyed in 30 minutes, I'd walk as far away as I could from that building. Doesn't seem like a hard concept.

Doesn't seem like a hard concept? How about this concept: they don't bomb one building at a time. When someone gives you 30 minutes to leave, where are you going to go that you know is safe. Remember: you are surrounded by a military that has already killed members of your family (I seriously doubt there are many people in Gaza who haven't lost a family member to the IDF), and is currently blowing up your home. You know they have killed people who were fleeing according to the pamphlets. So seriously, what the fuck is a person going to do.

Aren't you a firefighter? The callousness on display is a bad look. You are also aware -- hopefully better than any of us -- about the types of infirmities that can make it very difficult for a person to leave. Pregnant women are often assigned to bed rest late in their pregnancies. People can be crippled by injuries to their legs or torsos. There are all sorts of medical conditions. There are children and babies.

Seriously: you of all people should understand that vacating a building isn't trivial for everyone -- even leaving aside the issue of being gunned down on your way out.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Doesn't seem like a hard concept? How about this concept: they don't bomb one building at a time. When someone gives you 30 minutes to leave, where are you going to go that you know is safe. Remember: you are surrounded by a military that has already killed members of your family (I seriously doubt there are many people in Gaza who haven't lost a family member to the IDF), and is currently blowing up your home. You know they have killed people who were fleeing according to the pamphlets. So seriously, what the fuck is a person going to do.

Aren't you a firefighter? The callousness on display is a bad look. You are also aware -- hopefully better than any of us -- about the types of infirmities that can make it very difficult for a person to leave. Pregnant women are often assigned to bed rest late in their pregnancies. People can be crippled by injuries to their legs or torsos. There are all sorts of medical conditions. There are children and babies.

Seriously: you of all people should understand that vacating a building isn't trivial for everyone -- even leaving aside the issue of being gunned down on your way out.

IIRC, the roof knocks and phone calls tell people specifically which building is going to be targeted. Not every target gets warning, but for the ones that do, they have time to get out. If my wife is on bed rest, it doesn't matter....staying inside the building means a 100% certainty of death. If my father is in a wheelchair, I'm picking him up and carrying him. Being inconvenienced doesn't matter when your literal life is at stake.

Also, I'm pretty sure Hamas didn't give the victims on 10/7 any sort of warning or quarter. The IDF is unique in warning people before strikes occur. That's something that absolutely does not have to happen in warfare.

 

[ZenMode]

P.R.

That's your opinion. If Israel was actually trying to warn people, the things that are doing are exactly what they would be doing.

The notices are pathetic. First, they sometimes tell people to leave an area, and then the IDF attacks the people as they are leaving, and then the IDF levels the places where the civilians fled. So some % of the "notice" is actually just a trap.

But more importantly, the notices are useless. As you said, 15K people per sq mile (that's an exaggeration but whatever).

From Google:

15,603 per square mile
The population density is 1,438 people per square mile in the West Bank and 15,603 per square mile in Gaza. Sources are the Palestine Central Bureau of Statistics and the Harvard Center for Middle Eastern Studies.

Where are you going to go on half an hour's notice?

Anywhere away from where the bombs are landing. The average person could probably get 2 miles in 30 minutes on foot.

There are few roads because they've been bombed. There's no gas because blockade. There are people wounded from previous attacks. What the fuck is someone supposed to do when they are told they have half an hour.

Walk...run....ride a bicycle. What would you do if you knew you and 10 of your neighbors houses were getting bombed in 30 minutes and your car wouldn't start? You'd fucking run!

Go into the basement and hope the rubble doesn't collapse on you is what they can do.

Your incessant JCDing of a genocide -- which, at this point, it unambiguously is -- just fuck it there are no words.

You, Raiguy and others are looking at trees and ignoring the forest.

 

[ZenMode]

Also, I'm pretty sure Hamas didn't give the victims on 10/7 any sort of warning or quarter.

No because civilians were their primary target because terrorists are evil pieces of shit. Israel is fighting an enemy with no morals. An enemy that will gladly use wo.en and children as bombs. An enemy that is using Israel's morality against them by using civilians.

If Israel used human shields, it would be a bonus for Hamas.

The IDF is unique in warning people before strikes occur. That's something that absolutely does not have to happen in warfare.

In "normal" warfare, like Ukraine/Russia, it's just accepted that both sides will try, to varying degrees, to avoid civilian areas. That's partially because of the fear of war crimes, but you can't charge terrorists with war crimes.

 

[RaiGuy]

Why is Israel dropping pamphlets from the sky to warn people? Why are they texting and calling civilians to warn them to leave? What is the purpose of those actions if they are unconcerned about civilian deaths?

They don't warn people all the time and when they do it's pointless. You are basis your opinion from what you hear from Israel, and I am basing mine from the actual people being bombed. Talk to someone from Gaza and ask them if they're warned ahead of time or if the warnings help. You will find out the real answer. You call be a liar or whatever, but I know what's happening from people there. So many of my friends have lost loved ones and it wasn't because they ignored warnings to evacuate. That is disrespectful to them to say that.

 

[Calheel]

I posted an article here several months ago from the NYT that went into how American and Israeli intelligence experts believe that Hamas's military wing has been crippled and that they are unable to launch a 10/7-style attack anymore. They can continue to launch rockets and there's no reason to believe that small-scale attacks won't continue, but this war has devastated them and their allies.

As of this very minute, you are correct. But that is because Israel is occupying Gaza right now. Is that a viable long term strategy?

How does killing 50,000 Palestinians make
Israel safer in the long run?

 

[ZZLPHeels]

As of this very minute, you are correct. But that is because Israel is occupying Gaza right now. Is that a viable long term strategy?

How does killing 50,000 Palestinians make
Israel safer in the long run?

I don't think Israel thinks of it in the terms of "we need to kill X number of Palestinians and then we'll be safe." If that were the goal they could have done that in a week. I think Israel thinks more in the terms of "we need to destroy Hamas's extensive underground infrastructure, most of its weapons, and kneecap its allies while creating a buffer zone between Gaza and Israel and then we'll be safer."

Think of it in the terms of the Presidency. There are a lot of people who really, really hate Trump right now. There are probably a fair number of people who would do him harm if they had the chance. But, PA rally aside, it doesn't matter because security is so tight around him that no one is going to realistically have the chance to act on those desires. Likewise, a bunch of radicalized Palestinians who no longer have access to weapons and who can't feasibly even make it into Israel anymore pose much less of a threat than Hamas did on 10/6.

 

[Calheel]

Likewise, a bunch of radicalized Palestinians who no longer have access to weapons and who can't feasibly even make it into Israel anymore pose much less of a threat than Hamas did on 10/6.

Do they? What makes you think they will not have access to weapons once Israel withdraws? As of now, there is no long-range plan for how to deal with Gaza after the withdrawal. The Pan-Arab military idea has gone nowhere. The US isn't going to police the area. Israel does not want to stay in Gaza forever. So explain to me how Israel is really safer as a result of its Gaza tactics. Even if Hamas is completely vanished from the earth, Israel is not any bit safer.

Gaza has helped Bibi stay in power. But it hasn't done anything to make Israel a safer place to live for the long term.