Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[RaiGuy]

You literally just stated that the US doesn't have its own intelligence sources in the region and only relies on Israeli intelligence. Your words, not mine. And the "Apaches killed the concert goers" theory was debunked, just like the Israeli attack on the hospital lie was.

So, either the US has faulty intelligence, was straight up lying to push an agenda, or they base it on what Israel tells them. Biden has repeated several made up lies that came to them from Netanyahu. If the US was using their own intelligence, they wouldn't allow him to repeat a lie like the 40 beheaded babies. How do you explain that?

Also, that Hannibal directive theory was not debunked. It was confirmed by Haaretz and also Times of Israel wrote about it.

As for the hospital attack, the ones denying it was Israel are basing it from images or from Israeli investigation which included a fabricated intercepted call. Again, you still haven't answered why they didn't allow outside investigators? Why don't you answer that question?

 

[4thgenheel]

You think 10/7 was perpetrated by one person? Is that same person running around Gaza firing thousands of missiles at Israeli citizens? Man, why did the US even have to fire one bullet in World War II when they could have just killed Hitler? Why didn't we kill Bin Laden on 9/12/2001 if it is that easy?

are you stupid or is this just an unbelievably craven bad faith response?

the obvious point is that mossad/the idf/israel are capable of much, much, much more sophisticated and precise operations and instead they're committing genocide.

it is entirely by choice.

 

[superrific]

Do you think the United States prefers to not kill civilians? How do you explain the civilian death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan?

1. Actually, I do not think the Bush administration cared at all about killing civilians. That's because the war effort was being run by Rumsfeld and Cheney. It certainly wasn't the case in Vietnam, which was run by Robert McNamara. Those three guys had a lot in common, personality-wide (and intellectually as well).

2. The US and NATO carried out an operation in Kosovo that basically destroyed the Serbian military's ability to wage war. Milosevic's government collapsed shortly thereafter, and Milosevic himself was arrested and tried before the UN's criminal tribunal. The total civilian death count was . . . about 500. And that was an operation against an actual army, that had actual military weapons -- not stupid rockets that hit nothing.

3. There are 40M people who live in Afghanistan. There are about 2 million Gazans. So about 1 out of 1000 Afghan civilians died from collateral damage from the US forces over 20 years. In one year, more than 1 in 50 Gazans have lost their lives.

 

[4thgenheel]

during our illegal invasion/occupation of iraq we killed perhaps 1 million civilians - the decision makers responsible for it are war criminals who should be in prison. bush, cheney, rumsfeld, powell, rice, bolton, etc.

justice would be bibi, ben gvir, etc. shortly joining their cell block.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

So, either the US has faulty intelligence, was straight up lying to push an agenda, or they base it on what Israel tells them. Biden has repeated several made up lies that came to them from Netanyahu. If the US was using their own intelligence, they wouldn't allow him to repeat a lie like the 40 beheaded babies. How do you explain that?

Also, that Hannibal directive theory was not debunked. It was confirmed by Haaretz and also Times of Israel wrote about it.

As for the hospital attack, the ones denying it was Israel are basing it from images or from Israeli investigation which included a fabricated intercepted call. Again, you still haven't answered why they didn't allow outside investigators? Why don't you answer that question?

Those are the only options? But whatever Hamas and Al Jazeera say must be 100% true, right? I hate to tell you this my friend, but you are hopelessly brainwashed. I’m one who trusts our own intelligence services over Hamas, but you may feel differently. And Biden admitted that he misspoke. I suppose a baby being lit on fire and burned alive is totally fine in your book since it wasn’t beheaded.

We’ve been over the hospital attack numerous times. The only evidence you have that it was Israel is the word of Hamas. Unfortunately for you, forensic evidence, photo and video evidence, and every western intelligence service seem to believe otherwise.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

are you stupid or is this just an unbelievably craven bad faith response?

the obvious point is that mossad/the idf/israel are capable of much, much, much more sophisticated and precise operations and instead they're committing genocide.

it is entirely by choice.

Genuine question: do you really think Hamas is just one guy?

A precision strike would kill one person. It would do nothing about the tens of thousands of Hamas fighters inside Gaza.

 

[farce©]

Probably when someone other than Hamas governs Gaza. Not really rocket science.

Wait! Someone is governing Gaza?

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

1. Actually, I do not think the Bush administration cared at all about killing civilians. That's because the war effort was being run by Rumsfeld and Cheney. It certainly wasn't the case in Vietnam, which was run by Robert McNamara. Those three guys had a lot in common, personality-wide (and intellectually as well).

2. The US and NATO carried out an operation in Kosovo that basically destroyed the Serbian military's ability to wage war. Milosevic's government collapsed shortly thereafter, and Milosevic himself was arrested and tried before the UN's criminal tribunal. The total civilian death count was . . . about 500. And that was an operation against an actual army, that had actual military weapons -- not stupid rockets that hit nothing.

3. There are 40M people who live in Afghanistan. There are about 2 million Gazans. So about 1 out of 1000 Afghan civilians died from collateral damage from the US forces over 20 years. In one year, more than 1 in 50 Gazans have lost their lives.

Congratulations, you just figured out that conducting warfare in a dense urban environment is more costly on the populace there than conducting warfare in a rural one. The death toll in Gaza can largely be blamed on Hamas, which openly admits that it is trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. Why this fact is conveniently ignored escapes me. I guess it is just hard to criticize a terrorist group these days.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Wait! Someone is governing Gaza?

Yup. Hamas.

 

[RaiGuy]

Those are the only options? But whatever Hamas and Al Jazeera say must be 100% true, right? I hate to tell you this my friend, but you are hopelessly brainwashed. I’m one who trusts our own intelligence services over Hamas, but you may feel differently. And Biden admitted that he misspoke. I suppose a baby being lit on fire and burned alive is totally fine in your book since it wasn’t beheaded.

We’ve been over the hospital attack numerous times. The only evidence you have that it was Israel is the word of Hamas. Unfortunately for you, forensic evidence, photo and video evidence, and every western intelligence service seem to believe otherwise.

Aljazeera does a much better covering this than any of the western media outlets. Also, you keep putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hamas is 100% true. Also, I was referring to Biden spitting back the conspiracy theory that 40 babies were beheaded. While tragically, 2 infants were killed, it wasn't the 40 beheaded babies that an Israeli reporter admitted to fabricating.

As for the hospital, tell me who gathered the forensic evidence? I will ask this question again that you keep ignoring. Why weren't there external investigators that are typically involved in situations like this? You keep repeating yourself but don't bother to respond to questions.

 

[4thgenheel]

Genuine question: do you really think Hamas is just one guy?

A precision strike would kill one person. It would do nothing about the tens of thousands of Hamas fighters inside Gaza.

JFC, dude. i'm not even going to dignify that idiocy with a response.

the fact that you still aren't picking up the clear and obvious implication of the tehran strike vis a vis mossad/idf/israel's broader capabilities is mind numbing.

and israel's non precision strikes are killing one hamas operative......and 10-20 civilians.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Aljazeera does a much better covering this than any of the western media outlets. Also, you keep putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hamas is 100% true. Also, I was referring to Biden spitting back the conspiracy theory that 40 babies were beheaded. While tragically, 2 infants were killed, it wasn't the 40 beheaded babies that an Israeli reporter admitted to fabricating.

As for the hospital, tell me who gathered the forensic evidence? I will ask this question again that you keep ignoring. Why weren't there external investigators that are typically involved in situations like this? You keep repeating yourself but don't bother to respond to questions.

The evidence (or lack thereof) from the hospital was clear as day. Despite Hamas claims of thousands killed and the hospital being “destroyed”, the photos and video from the scene showed no damage at all to the hospital aside from a broken window. No crater. No bomb fragments. And a death toll revised to “maybe 50”. At the same time, evidence emerged of PIJ firing a rocket towards the hospital literally moments before the hospital was struck. People who get paid way more than you or I and who work for agencies that have three letters in the name analyze things like that for a living, and all independently came to the same conclusion: Israel had nothing to do with it.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

JFC, dude. i'm not even going to dignify that idiocy with a response.

the fact that you still aren't picking up the clear and obvious implication of the tehran strike vis a vis mossad/idf/israel's broader capabilities is mind numbing.

and israel's non precision strikes are killing one hamas operative......and 10-20 civilians.

Do you not understand that Hamas finds it harder to hide behind civilians in, say, Tehran than in Gaza?

I’ll put it to you another way. Let’s say a hospital employs two surgeons. 99.95% of Surgeon A’s patients are still alive 30 days after their surgery. 70% of Surgeon B’s patients are still alive 30 days after their surgery. Should the hospital fire Surgeon B and just use Surgeon A? What if I told you that Surgeon A performed laparoscopic knee surgery all day every day and Surgeon B was a trauma surgeon?

Just because Israel was able to do a surgical strike one time with no collateral damage does not mean that every single strike can be surgical. Just like not every surgery can be a controlled outpatient procedure, scheduled in advance by the patient and the surgeon.

 

[RaiGuy]

The evidence (or lack thereof) from the hospital was clear as day. Despite Hamas claims of thousands killed and the hospital being “destroyed”, the photos and video from the scene showed no damage at all to the hospital aside from a broken window. No crater. No bomb fragments. And a death toll revised to “maybe 50”. At the same time, evidence emerged of PIJ firing a rocket towards the hospital literally moments before the hospital was struck. People who get paid way more than you or I and who work for agencies that have three letters in the name analyze things like that for a living, and all independently came to the same conclusion: Israel had nothing to do with it.

Here is a link from February from a research group in London about the bombing: Forensic Architecture. Basically, they are stating that without more evidence, it is inconclusive, but Israel did spread disinformation immediately after the attack.

I also don't get why you are fixated by one questionable incident (in which you STILL haven't answered why they don't allow outside investigators), and you justify Israel destroying all the other hospitals because you believe the bullshit that Hamas uses all of them.

 

[ZenMode]

There is pretty much no evidence of the Bibi regime giving a fuck about Palestinians. To the extent that they give the appearance, it's only because they fear being cut off by America, which has apparently has a huge but presumably not unlimited tolerance for IDF atrocities.

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 2,200,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong, I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

 

[4thgenheel]

Do you not understand that Hamas finds it harder to hide behind civilians in, say, Tehran than in Gaza?

you really think that hamas is that much more cunning and strategic than apparently wildly reckless, incompetent mossad/IDF/israel?

tehran is just one example. again, try to extrapolate the events there and in other mossad actions.

mossad/idf/israel are capable of much more precision than what they're showing in gaza. they just don't care about palestinians. the casualties are the point. they want beach front condos for israelis in gaza and palestinian people gone.

 

[4thgenheel]

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 600,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong. No info was easily found, so I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

2+ million prior to 10/7/23 seems to be the consensus.

How Big is Gaza? - Anera

Gaza has the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population, with some 2.23 million residents of the small territory.

www.anera.org

Topic: Gaza Strip

Discover all statistics and data on Gaza Strip now on statista.com!

www.statista.com

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians

 

[RaiGuy]

I don't think the numbers reflect that.

Gaza's population is about 600,000 people. That's about 15,000 per square mile (Israel is about 1200 sq/mi). The Palestinian Health Ministry, according to Reuters, doesn't report civilians separately from combatants, so it's difficult to have a good sense of civilian casualties. I'll be fairly generous and say it's 40,000. That breaks down to about 120 civilian casualties per day, over the last 332 days.

Hamas, on October 7th and with little more than knives and guns, killed over 1,200 civilians in a matter of hours. I believe it was about 8 hours, but could be wrong, I'm going from memory.

If Israel, with true military weapons at their disposal, was indiscriminately bombing anywhere they wanted, the casualties would be significantly higher than their 120/day civilian death rate.

Your numbers aren't correct. First, the population of Gaza was estimated to be around 2 million with nearly half of them under the age of 18.

The number killed in Gaza is likely way over 40,000 as many are still buried under buildings and haven't been counted in the final death toll. It also doesn't count the ones that died from starvation or preventable diseases.

Also, on Oct 7th, the number of civilians killed was 815, the rest were Israeli soldiers.

 

[ZenMode]

2+ million prior to 10/7/23 seems to be the consensus.

How Big is Gaza? - Anera

Gaza has the same land area as Las Vegas but more than three times the population, with some 2.23 million residents of the small territory.

www.anera.org

Topic: Gaza Strip

Discover all statistics and data on Gaza Strip now on statista.com!

www.statista.com

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1206479861/israel-gaza-hamas-children-population-war-palestinians

Thanks. At 141sq/mi, it would have to be over 2 million to be at 15,000 per sq/mi.

 

[ZenMode]

Your numbers aren't correct. First, the population of Gaza was estimated to be around 2 million with nearly half of them under the age of 18.

The number killed in Gaza is likely way over 40,000 as many are still buried under buildings and haven't been counted in the final death toll. It also doesn't count the ones that died from starvation or preventable diseases.

Also, on Oct 7th, the number of civilians killed was 815, the rest were Israeli soldiers.

Even with your numbers, it doesn't change the overall picture. Israel, given the weapons at their disposal and given the population density of Gaza, could be easily killing thousands, if not tens of thousands, per day.