Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[superrific]

Hamas gets a pass, every day. We get it.

Why are you incapable of reading comprehension? Nobody is giving Hamas a pass in any way.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Your trying to lecture a Palestinian about Palestinians? smh
I know more about this situation than you’ll ever know. I don’t mean that as an insult. Being Palestinian, this is something that you deal with every day. My whole life, just me telling someone I am Palestinian-American starts a political conversation and many times I have had to defend my existence.
I don’t need someone like you lecturing me about what is good for Palestinians.

You don't see how that might make you prone to bias? And I'd say the same thing to an Israeli.

Hamas is the problem here. Hamas is the enemy, not Palestinians. I've said this over and over again.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Why are you incapable of reading comprehension? Nobody is giving Hamas a pass in any way.

Just a few pages back you had a poster suggesting that the 6 hostages were somehow killed by Israel. In the 32 pages of this thread, I'd wager 90% of the comments are simply bashing Israel.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

i thought i could smell an antisemitism accusation coming, you danced around it a bit in a previous post.

dishonest, pathetic and inappropriate.

What is pathetic is refusing to condemn a terrorist group (Hamas) that has stated openly that it wants to kill as many Palestinians as possible. There's no other logical explanation for simply closing one's eyes to Hamas's atrocities and trying to blame Israel for its own people getting kidnapped and massacred.

 

[4thgenheel]

What is pathetic is refusing to condemn a terrorist group (Hamas) that has stated openly that it wants to kill as many Palestinians as possible. There's no other logical explanation for simply closing one's eyes to Hamas's atrocities and trying to blame Israel for its own people getting kidnapped and massacred.

this is dishonest BS. no one is refusing to condemn hamas. people have acknowledged their barbarism all over this thread and on the old board.

criticizing israel or the idf =/= antisemitism.

 

[RaiGuy]

You don't see how that might make you prone to bias? And I'd say the same thing to an Israeli.

Hamas is the problem here. Hamas is the enemy, not Palestinians. I've said this over and over again.

You sound like you didn't start following what was happening there until Oct 7th. Either that, or you choose to ignore one side of the situation.
You also keep deflecting by saying that we don't condemn Hamas, but you never condemn Israel for it's war crimes. You just justify it by saying that its part of war and that the Palestinians asked for it by voting in Hamas when half the population wasn't even alive when that vote happened.

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

You sound like you didn't start following what was happening there until Oct 7th. Either that, or you choose to ignore one side of the situation.
You also keep deflecting by saying that we don't condemn Hamas, but you never condemn Israel for it's war crimes. You just justify it by saying that its part of war and that the Palestinians asked for it by voting in Hamas when half the population wasn't even alive when that vote happened.

Also didn’t Hamas get like 30% of the vote in an election split by dozens of parties?

 

[RaiGuy]

Also didn’t Hamas get like 30% of the vote in an election split by dozens of parties?

Yeah, and also, at the time, they had said they were dropping their military wing. They were also the ones that were cleaning up the corruption from the previous governing party. Basically, the people that voted for them was because of the changes they were seeing, rather than because they were supporting their military agenda.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

You sound like you didn't start following what was happening there until Oct 7th. Either that, or you choose to ignore one side of the situation.
You also keep deflecting by saying that we don't condemn Hamas, but you never condemn Israel for it's war crimes. You just justify it by saying that its part of war and that the Palestinians asked for it by voting in Hamas when half the population wasn't even alive when that vote happened.

I have condemned Israel for its war crimes, on this very board. The difference is that they may be largely ignored (which is wrong) but they are not official IDF policy. Hamas’s only strategy is terror. They don’t ignore brutality against civilians…they encourage and live by it. The IDF is a military and still has standards…there have been numerous instances of IDF soldiers and medics rescuing Palestinian civilians. When was the last time a Hamas fighter rescued an Israeli?

Also, while dead is dead, there is a difference between targeting a terrorist and killing 10 civilians who are located in the building with the terrorist and intentionally targeting civilians. One is collateral damage and is an unfortunate consequence of warfare (and always has been) while the other is simply terrorism.

 

[RaiGuy]

I have condemned Israel for its war crimes, on this very board. The difference is that they may be largely ignored (which is wrong) but they are not official IDF policy. Hamas’s only strategy is terror. They don’t ignore brutality against civilians…they encourage and live by it. The IDF is a military and still has standards…there have been numerous instances of IDF soldiers and medics rescuing Palestinian civilians. When was the last time a Hamas fighter rescued an Israeli?

Also, while dead is dead, there is a difference between targeting a terrorist and killing 10 civilians who are located in the building with the terrorist and intentionally targeting civilians. One is collateral damage and is an unfortunate consequence of warfare (and always has been) while the other is simply terrorism.

If you believe all of that, then you really don't know what's going on. Do some research. I am not going to waste my time and repeat things I have said a million times.

 

[superrific]

Just a few pages back you had a poster suggesting that the 6 hostages were somehow killed by Israel. In the 32 pages of this thread, I'd wager 90% of the comments are simply bashing Israel.

I was that poster, and I didn't suggest anything of the sort. Reading comprehension is your responsibility, not mine. Also, 90% of the comments, huh? Is this going to go better or worse than the "deaths would be 100x-1000x higher if not for Israeli restraint" from that other math-illiterate poster?

 

[superrific]

Also didn’t Hamas get like 30% of the vote in an election split by dozens of parties?

General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.

When your “social services” wing diverts billions of dollars in foreign aid from infrastructure and assistance projects to fund terror tunnels and tens of thousands of missiles to launch at civilian cities, you bear the blame for that. In no world was Israel going to say, “hey, this group that has vowed to kill our citizens has taken control along our southern border. Let’s just let them come in as they wish.”

 

[TarSpiel]

Yeah, and also, at the time, they had said they were dropping their military wing. They were also the ones that were cleaning up the corruption from the previous governing party. Basically, the people that voted for them was because of the changes they were seeing, rather than because they were supporting their military agenda.

This is really critical information.

The problem is, you can say it over and over again, but people like NutCups just don't seem able to integrate it into their preferred narrative.

 

[superrific]

When your “social services” wing diverts billions of dollars in foreign aid from infrastructure and assistance projects to fund terror tunnels and tens of thousands of missiles to launch at civilian cities, you bear the blame for that. In no world was Israel going to say, “hey, this group that has vowed to kill our citizens has taken control along our southern border. Let’s just let them come in as they wish.”

Dude, why? You don't have to try to move the goal posts in every post. This one was very short. Could you at least try to retain some sort of tether to reason?

To be specific, the blockade in question was not about keeping Hamas out of Israel. It was about keeping supplies out of Gaza. That's why the foreign aid didn't go to infrastructure. Who are they building infrastructure for? The businesses who would never locate there because the blockade and Israeli domination make it one of the worst business environments in the developed world?

At least you're now admitting that Israel is in control of Gaza, and thus I would expect not to hear the "Hamas is in charge" argument from you again. Oh, who am I kidding? Of course you'll continue with it. But anyway, the blockade was a massive strategic failure. Israel was hoping to use it to force Gazans to vote for a party that wasn't Hamas. It was a baffling decision; strong-armed threats like that rarely work, and almost never work on Palestinians. In any event, the Palestinians called Israel's bluff, so then Israel had to prove that it wasn't bluffing . . . and now we're here.

It is so tiring listening to people like you acting as if Israel are the good guys here. It's just affinity bias. In reality, the Israel cabinet is composed of rabid right-wingers, whose constituencies are the settlers and ultra-orthodox fundamentalists. Jewish fundamentalists, like Hindu fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists, are among the worst people in the world. It's almost as if fundamentalism is anti-social.

Back in the 1980s, it was plausible to assert that Israel was the good side in the conflict, because its leadership was generally free of extremist influence. And Arafat probably recognized that, which is why he agreed to Oslo. Of course, back then, the arab resistance was also not nearly fundamentalist as it is now. Since then, Israel has been dominated by the birth rates of its backwards settler population, and the Palestinian resistance dominated by the Islamist wing of Hamas.

 

[tonman]

General note: The blockade turned Hamas into monsters. Back when that election occurred, Hamas had two wings -- the military wing, and the political/social services wing. That sort of setup is not unusual and Americans might remember when the IRA did the same thing (Sinn Fein was the name of its political wing). And the military wing was unpopular, but the political wing was popular and it was what propelled them to victory. The political wing, at the time, looked more responsive to the people's needs and less corrupt than alternatives.

Well, then Israel announced it would blockade Gaza if Hamas were elected. First off, that was total bullshit. Either a region has self-determination or it doesn't. If Israel says, "you can elect the leader of your choice, so long as it is also the leader of our choice" then that's not self-determination. But more importantly, it wiped out the social services wing of Hamas. There was no way for the Hamas government to deliver on its promises, given that the region was being intentionally plunged into poverty. The social services wing became useless over night, and then it withered and died. Now it's a military organization again.

I'm so tired of hearing the right-wingers bray endlessly about how Gaza elected Hamas. If you want to look for blame in that time period, it falls on Israel.

You think the political side of Hamas would stop the military side from doing what it wants?

The only people who can stop Hamas are the Palestinians themselves.

Yeah Israel blockade but you forget Egypt closed its border to Gaza after Hamas won election. Those evil Egyptians!

 

[altmin]

With the supposed pause for polio vaccinations on... Israel bombs a hospital.

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.

www.nytimes.com

The second phase of a campaign to vaccinate children in Gaza against polio began on Thursday in southern Gaza, the World Health Organization said, continuing a frantic drive to avert a deadly outbreak in the war-battered territory.

Israel has agreed to brief, staggered pauses in its military offensive in Gaza to allow health officials to conduct vaccinations. But underscoring the limited nature of the pauses, hours after the first phase of the campaign wrapped up in central Gaza on Wednesday, an Israeli airstrike hit the courtyard of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, one of the largest in the area, Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s official news agency, reported.

Four people were killed, including women and children sheltering in tents around the hospital, Wafa said on Thursday. Video taken by the Reuters news agency showed tents in ruins, their wooden beams flattened, and people’s belongings strewed in the hospital’s courtyard.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

With the supposed pause for polio vaccinations on... Israel bombs a hospital.

Gaza Talks Stall Over Details of Hostages-for-Prisoners Swap, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials say that Hamas and Israel have not agreed on how many people each side would set free, nor on who they would be, in the first, six-week phase of a truce.

www.nytimes.com

The second phase of a campaign to vaccinate children in Gaza against polio began on Thursday in southern Gaza, the World Health Organization said, continuing a frantic drive to avert a deadly outbreak in the war-battered territory.

Israel has agreed to brief, staggered pauses in its military offensive in Gaza to allow health officials to conduct vaccinations. But underscoring the limited nature of the pauses, hours after the first phase of the campaign wrapped up in central Gaza on Wednesday, an Israeli airstrike hit the courtyard of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, one of the largest in the area, Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s official news agency, reported.

Four people were killed, including women and children sheltering in tents around the hospital, Wafa said on Thursday. Video taken by the Reuters news agency showed tents in ruins, their wooden beams flattened, and people’s belongings strewed in the hospital’s courtyard.

Are we sure that Israel hit the hospital? Don't think taking Hamas's word for it is the best strategy. The damage in the video above didn't seem to be consistent with an airstrike, but I'm not expert.

 

[RaiGuy]

Are we sure that Israel hit the hospital? Don't think taking Hamas's word for it is the best strategy. The damage in the video above didn't seem to be consistent with an airstrike, but I'm not expert.

You are relentless. Either you question if Israel did it, or you will come back and justify it because you will say a Hamas member was in the vicinity and they were all human shields.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

You are relentless. Either you question if Israel did it, or you will come back and justify it because you will say a Hamas member was in the vicinity and they were all human shields.

I'm asking the question. Usually when the NYT reports about an IDF airstrike, they reach out to both sides for confirmation. In the article above they only reached out to Hamas. Of course Hamas is going to blame Israel, and Israel may very well be to blame. I simply don't take anything Hamas says at face value, and I don't believe the media should either.