Israel Hamas War, West Bank | Hamas, Israel agree to stage 1 of peace plan

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A great many people cared about those hostages and there is no shame in having empathy for innocent victims on both sides. These hostages are not to blame for what happened or what followed.
 
ZenMode said:
The sad part about this, for the people of Gaza, is that this destruction will not deter Hamas from its next attack on Israel.
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I think there are lots of sad parts of this for Gaza, and that possibility is only one of them (as is the possibility that it will not deter Israel from its next attack on Gaza).
 
superrific said:
Why the hell would you say that? Who the fuck cares about 20 hostages when 100K+ have died (that will be the final tally, at least)?

This is why fascists will always beat liberals: they can count on you going soft and "celebrating" shit like this. Bibi didn't give a shit about the hostages. None of his government did. Why the fuck should you?

The only narrative that can be told of this period is one of genocide. There are no bright spots. There was only death and destruction. Israel must never be permitted to regain any status in the community of nations; it must forever be a pariah, unless and until they reform themselves as thoroughly as South Africa, post WWII Germany and Japan.

Fuck the hostages. I mean, nothing personally against them of course. But they can't hear the words you or I write. We write to an audience of people living in the new fascism, and in this world, 20 people is nothing.
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I can see that (temporary) peace and families being reunited really upsets you.
 
superrific said:
Also fuck Trump: he didn't do any of this. Israel's hand was forced by the recognition of Palestine as a state.
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Look, I deeply oppose Trump and cannot believe how many people support this authoritarian acts in America, but Trump and his Administration clearly worked for this particular outcome (once it suited them to do so). I don’t for a second buy the nonsense that only Trump could achieve this general outcome — hostage releases were successfully negotiated and a ceasefire implemented under his predecessor. But the Administration achieved this particular outcome with a ton of obvious effort.
 
superrific said:
Why the hell would you say that? Who the fuck cares about 20 hostages when 100K+ have died (that will be the final tally, at least)?

This is why fascists will always beat liberals: they can count on you going soft and "celebrating" shit like this. Bibi didn't give a shit about the hostages. None of his government did. Why the fuck should you?

The only narrative that can be told of this period is one of genocide. There are no bright spots. There was only death and destruction. Israel must never be permitted to regain any status in the community of nations; it must forever be a pariah, unless and until they reform themselves as thoroughly as South Africa, post WWII Germany and Japan.

Fuck the hostages. I mean, nothing personally against them of course. But they can't hear the words you or I write. We write to an audience of people living in the new fascism, and in this world, 20 people is nothing.
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Super, will all due respect, this is over the line. I understand the argument you're trying to make. There are some legitimate points underlying it. This is not the time or the way to make it. Whatever cause you think you're advancing by saying this, you're not. You can advocate the position you want to advocate without reacting like this to someone who made an extremely benign post.
 
nycfan said:
A great many people cared about those hostages and there is no shame in having empathy for innocent victims on both sides. These hostages are not to blame for what happened or what followed.
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There's no shame, it's just utterly stupid and it guarantees that this shit will happen over and over again.

Who is a great many people? Their friends, their families? Who are we talking about? 1000 people max? Now do all the people who cared for all the other dead. Or are we counting on people who have been "caring" about the hostages as symbols? Fuck them.

The return of the hostages is a tragedy. It means that the whitewashing of the genocide will now begin. It was worth it, after all, because of the hostages. Now watch as the hostages become lionized like Charlie Kirk, as Bibi and Trump play on your good will to tighten their grip.
 
superrific said:
There's no shame, it's just utterly stupid and it guarantees that this shit will happen over and over again.

Who is a great many people? Their friends, their families? Who are we talking about? 1000 people max? Now do all the people who cared for all the other dead. Or are we counting on people who have been "caring" about the hostages as symbols? Fuck them.

The return of the hostages is a tragedy. It means that the whitewashing of the genocide will now begin. It was worth it, after all, because of the hostages. Now watch as the hostages become lionized like Charlie Kirk, as Bibi and Trump play on your good will to tighten their grip.
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You can warn about the dangers of the whitewashing of the horrific Israeli campaign in Gaza and the use of the hostages as Kirkian rallying points for further bloodshed and horror without acting this callously towards the hostages themselves. And in fact the attitude you're displaying is only going to push away people are inclined to be sympathetic to your larger point that Israel itself bears much of the blame for this situation and must change its behavior towards Gaza.
 
nycfan said:
Look, I deeply oppose Trump and cannot believe how many people support this authoritarian acts in America, but Trump and his Administration clearly worked for this particular outcome (once it suited them to do so). I don’t for a second buy the nonsense that only Trump could achieve this general outcome — hostage releases were successfully negotiated and a ceasefire implemented under his predecessor. But the Administration achieved this particular outcome with a ton of obvious effort.
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Which outcome? You mean, sit on their hands for 10 months while the famine and genocide raged, and then after a whole bunch of other countries recognized Palestine as a state (which would come with serious consequences for Israel), Trump decides to engage?

And it remains an incredibly shitty deal for Gaza. The thing that makes me the most angry is that under Trump's plan, Israel won't pay a dime for what they did. It's going to be "Arab states and investors." Guess what? They aren't giving money away and everyone knows it. Reliance on outside private capital means that the luxury beach condo vision of Gaza will have prevailed and the deaths of 100K Palestinians will have merely cleared the way.
 
rodoheel said:
I think there are lots of sad parts of this for Gaza, and that possibility is only one of them (as is the possibility that it will not deter Israel from its next attack on Gaza).
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Yep. Israel is likely to respond the next time Hamas, or some other terrorist group, attacks them.
 
ZenMode said:
Yep. Israel is likely to respond there next time Hamas, or some other terrorist group, attacks them.
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Israel has done plenty of horrible things in Gaza and the West Bank that were not in reaction to anything Hamas or another terrorist group did. Hamas is a terrorist organization and what it did on October 7 is truly horrific; no one should argue otherwise. But the implication that Israel only does bad things in direct reaction to atrocities committed against it is simply not accurate.
 
rodoheel said:
You can warn about the dangers of the whitewashing of the horrific Israeli campaign in Gaza and the use of the hostages as Kirkian rallying points for further bloodshed and horror without acting this callously towards the hostages themselves. And in fact the attitude you're displaying is only going to push away people are inclined to be sympathetic to your larger point that Israel itself bears much of the blame for this situation and must change its behavior towards Gaza.
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Acting callously toward whom? I wouldn't tell them to GFY themselves to their face. I never knew anything about them before this happened. I didn't know they existed. They were a few of millions of Israeli people. They remain that. If they were to come to my house seeking food or shelter for whatever reason, they would get it from me. I would hug them and listen to their stories and offer my support. They are people, of course.

But to me and to all of us, they are merely symbols. We always lose the propaganda war when we allow the symbols to take on the meanings the fascists want.
 
rodoheel said:
Israel has done plenty of horrible things in Gaza and the West Bank that were not in reaction to anything Hamas or another terrorist group did. Hamas is a terrorist organization and what it did on October 7 is truly horrific; no one should argue otherwise. But the implication that Israel only does bad things in direct reaction to atrocities committed against it is simply not accurate.
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Israel has conclusively shown itself to be THE bad actor in the Middle East. All the victims of Islamic terrorism put together are a tiny fraction of the deaths caused by the Israeli government
 
superrific said:
Acting callously toward whom? I wouldn't tell them to GFY themselves to their face. I never knew anything about them before this happened. I didn't know they existed. They were a few of millions of Israeli people. They remain that. If they were to come to my house seeking food or shelter for whatever reason, they would get it from me. I would hug them and listen to their stories and offer my support. They are people, of course.

But to me and to all of us, they are merely symbols. We always lose the propaganda war when we allow the symbols to take on the meanings the fascists want.
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You can refuse to let the hostages take on "the meanings the fascists want" without talking about them in a way that the vast majority of people, even those sympathetic to your broader position, will find repulsive. If your goal is persuade people to your point of view, it will have the opposite effect. If it's just to vent anger, you can do that on different threads without saying things that sound targeted at a particular group of people who really don't deserve your anger.

Super, I say this as someone who respects your intellect a lot and has observed your posting style for a long time: your posting style seems to sort of go in ebbs and flows, where sometimes you are more logical, curious, and levelheaded and and then sometimes you become more emotional and prone to angry outbursts. The last few weeks you've been trending towards the latter. Lord knows that most people should be absolutely furious at what the Trump admin is doing both in our country and internationally, so I completely understand the genesis of that anger. But the way you're expressing yourself, in my opinion, is becoming less healthy and more toxic. You know yourself better than anyone, so feel free to tell me to go fuck myself (I won't be offended), but just wanted to let you know what at least I have been observing in your posts.
 
rodoheel said:
You can refuse to let the hostages take on "the meanings the fascists want" without talking about them in a way that the vast majority of people, even those sympathetic to your broader position, will find repulsive. If your goal is persuade people to your point of view, it will have the opposite effect. If it's just to vent anger, you can do that on different threads without saying things that sound targeted at a particular group of people who really don't deserve your anger.

Super, I say this as someone who respects your intellect a lot and has observed your posting style for a long time: your posting style seems to sort of go in ebbs and flows, where sometimes you are more logical, curious, and levelheaded and and then sometimes you become more emotional and prone to angry outbursts. The last few weeks you've been trending towards the latter. Lord knows that most people should be absolutely furious at what the Trump admin is doing both in our country and internationally, so I completely understand the genesis of that anger. But the way you're expressing yourself, in my opinion, is becoming less healthy and more toxic. You know yourself better than anyone, so feel free to tell me to go fuck myself (I won't be offended), but just wanted to let you know what at least I have been observing in your posts.
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Well yesterday I was in bed all day shitting and barfing with a nasty gastroenteritis. So that might be contributing to my current agita.

I guess I don't see how talking about the hostages in this way is repulsive. I don't think they are bad people. I don't wish ill on them. Reading the post about celebrating the hostages' return made me a little more nauseated. I simply do not understand why we should care about 20 people we don't know, have never heard of, and whose ongoing role in this conflict is going to be horrifying regardless of what they want. Because the Israeli government doesn't give a shit about them.

Whatever, I have made my point and will shut up now. It's too bad for me, I guess, that my view of the world is so unusual. To anticipate an objection, yes I am aware that the world is complicated and we can juggle two narratives in our heads (more than that) at once. But these are the same narratives.
 
superrific said:
Well yesterday I was in bed all day shitting and barfing with a nasty gastroenteritis. So that might be contributing to my current agita.
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That makes sense. Feeling ill can make one easily agitated. Awareness of what is causing that agitation is good because you can be more careful with, and reconsider, what you're saying...
superrific said:
I guess I don't see how talking about the hostages in this way is repulsive. I don't think they are bad people. I don't wish ill on them. Reading the post about celebrating the hostages' return made me a little more nauseated. I simply do not understand why we should care about 20 people we don't know, have never heard of, and whose ongoing role in this conflict is going to be horrifying regardless of what they want. Because the Israeli government doesn't give a shit about them.
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....or not.
 
I hate the Trump administration as much as anyone and hope they all choke on their next meals (figuratively, of course) but I am so elated that these hostages are finally being freed and I have no problem giving credit to the administration where it's due. They're still total shitweasels in every single facet of their miserable existences, but if they played a key role in the release of innocent human beings who have spent the last 2 years being torrtued, starved, raped, and God knows what else, they can have a win in my book.
 
rodoheel said:
Lord knows that most people should be absolutely furious at what the Trump admin is doing both in our country and internationally, so I completely understand the genesis of that anger.
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It was the Supreme Court's behavior that really tipped the scales for me. I just struggle with the "there is no bottom" reality. I fully expected the reactionaries to do their "the best time in our country's history was the 18th and 19th century so let's go back!" bullshit. I was not prepared for them to do what they did, which is simply an unabashed attack on the rule of law and forfeiture of its status as a court.

I would be a lot less angry if I had confidence that people are ready to do what needs to be done. Alas, people will view it as "too extreme" -- and perhaps at this time last year I would have as well, so don't take this for an outwardly focused rant -- and decide that we just have to live with this dystopia.
 
CFordUNC said:
I hate the Trump administration as much as anyone and hope they all choke on their next meals (figuratively, of course) but I am so elated that these hostages are finally being freed and I have no problem giving credit to the administration where it's due. They're still total shitweasels in every single facet of their miserable existences, but if they played a key role in the release of innocent human beings who have spent the last 2 years being torrtued, starved, raped, and God knows what else, they can have a win in my book.
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So now these 20 people are freed from their ordeal. Meanwhile, Trump shipped 10x that many people to the prison in El Salvador where they will be tortured, starved and raped. Do we just not care about them? Or are we going to have a song and dance party when they get released as well, and then the next group, and the next group, and so on. For instance, Kilmar is probably going to be freed by Judge Xinis. That's great and all, but Kilmar is a tiny, tiny % of the victims.
All I can say is that if I were the family of the people murdered by Trump in boats off Venezuela, I'd be really fucking pissed off to see people joyously celebrating the return of hostages. And even more so if I was related to the people who were starving to death in Gaza while Trump lifted nary a finger.

Maybe I'm just bizarre in my thinking. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. If you are related to the hostages or they had meaning in your life before all of this, then by all means party away. They are people; they have friends and family; they should enjoy the end of their ordeals. As for the rest of us, I just don't get it.
 
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