Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

[2ManyBlueCups]

This is so stupid. Of course that was wrong but extrapolating that out to mean not many people believe in Israel's right to exist is asinine. The vast majority of people support Israel's right to exist. I know you understand this but have to act like a fool to think you are getting your point across.

I don’t think we’re on the same page here. I’m not arguing that most people believe Israel should cease to exist. I’m arguing that super’s statement that Jewish people shouldn’t be offended by or worried by actions like those that took place on campus yesterday is wrong.

 

[superrific]

I got really tired of all the posturing last spring. It was as if people thought "I feel unsafe" was the only way to be heard, and so we had an epidemic of people saying they felt unsafe. It was all bullshit.

I cannot imagine how a Jewish professor would feel unsafe just because a colleague posted something Hamas related on a web page or even his/her office door. What does that person think is going to happen? The colleague is going to murder him/her? Some Muslim guys in the employ or under the influence of that professor will attack? I can't help but think it was all performative BS.

And that goes for the Muslim protesters also. There are legit threats, of course, and legit racism/hostility. But a lot of the "I feel unsafe" was disingenuous and just discourse polluting. The folks camping out on Columbia's quad certainly weren't acting as though they felt unsafe. Nor did the Jewish students who walked across the quad and egged on the students there.

We will never, ever reach a solution as long as people try to distill a complex issue into two simplistic sides, and then spend most of their time trying to claim that the other side is really bad, rather than finding ways to bridge the gap. And yes, the mass killing of innocents makes that a lot harder. But it seems to me that if South Africa could manage to make a Truth and Reconciliation approach work for apartheid, maybe we can find a way to do something similar here.

 

[finesse]

But they shouldn't. I criticize Saudi Arabia all the time. I hate their government. Same with criticizing Iran. But it doesn't mean I hate the people there or that I am a self-hating Muslim.
The thing is that Israeli propaganda pushes the idea that Israel and Judaism are one and the same. The whole StopHate campaign was about stopping people from criticizing Israel. For some Israelis, just by me, as a Palestinian, carrying a Palestinian flag is immediately an antisemitic action. I've dealt with situations like this my whole life and frankly, I don't give a damn if it offends them. Again, I am reiterating, no one is bashing Judaism. There is nothing by respect to the religion.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Palestinians essentially have the same claim to the term Semite if they care to make it as almost any Jew? I never have come to understand the use of term antisemitism in this whole conflict. It's incorrect and emotionally loaded as are the false beliefs about a Promised Land which undermine any attempts at impartiality by us as a nation.

 

[superrific]

I don’t think we’re on the same page here. I’m not arguing that most people believe Israel should cease to exist. I’m arguing that super’s statement that Jewish people shouldn’t be offended by or worried by actions like those that took place on campus yesterday is wrong.

Point me to that statement, please. And not in my most recent post, which came after your silly accusation.

 

[RaiGuy]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Palestinians essentially have the same claim to the term Semite if they care to make it as almost any Jew? I never have come to understand the use of term antisemitism in this whole conflict. It's incorrect and emotionally loaded as are the false beliefs about a Promised Land which undermine any attempts at impartiality by us as a nation.

Yup, that is correct. Palestinians are semitic people too.

 

[RaiGuy]

Yeah that’s quite a lot of projection. I have never said any of the things that you are accusing me of saying. If you are just going to blanketly call me a racist for no reason then I don’t see a need to continue this conversation.

I didn't call you a racist. I just pointed out how in your posts you quickly justify the deaths of Palestinian and Lebanese victims as "collateral damage" while any death of an Israeli should be justification for Israel to defend itself and kill more Palestinians and Lebanese. They're all clearly human shields anyways, right?

If you do value Palestinian and Lebanese lives as much as Israelis, your posts don't seem to state it. If Israeli settlers were sent exploding pagers, would you laud that operation or would you call it a terrorist attack?

 

[Batt Boy]

If you made this case in up until the mid 60s, you wouldn't be too offbase but seriously, they got the bomb in about 66 and everyone knew it if they didn't admit it. Nobody was pushing them into the sea after that. The biggest bullies, although there's about a six way tie for biggest assholes, are the Israelis because, not only do they have the bomb, they have us babying them and preventing the UN from doing anything. As early as I feel sorry for you if you believe a tenth of what you're spewing.

What am I spewing? Israel is at war. I believe they have the right to execute that war in the interest of their people.

 

[RaiGuy]

What am I spewing? Israel is at war. I believe they have the right to execute that war in the interest of their people.

Wouldn't it be easier if they stopped oppressing and occupying people instead of bombing them and creating more enemies? The "war" they are creating is not going to make their people any safer in the long term. It's only going to start a new cycle as we have seen before.

 

[Batt Boy]

Wouldn't it be easier if they stopped oppressing and occupying people instead of bombing them and creating more enemies? The "war" they are creating is not going to make their people any safer in the long term. It's only going to start a new cycle as we have seen before.

Agreed. They should use their bombs on the settlers. They are criminals in my view. But it wouldn't matter. The cycle is set. Their enemies want them dead. Gone. Removed. They offered Gaza, Judea and Samaria and got turned down. The time for peace passed then. They will have to fight this out until the end.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Point me to that statement, please. And not in my most recent post, which came after your silly accusation.

Don't come back with "From the river to the sea." That's more bullshit. First, almost nobody in America believes that is a call for the extermination of Israel. It doesn't really matter what Hamas means by that phrase. What matters is what people here mean by it. If it makes you feel uncomfortable because it has multiple meanings, then say so. Ask people to use a different slogan. You might be surprised at what you find. But if you tell people "no, using that phrase is inherently hateful and you are all anti-Semites," then again you're going to lose people

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

I didn't call you a racist. I just pointed out how in your posts you quickly justify the deaths of Palestinian and Lebanese victims as "collateral damage" while any death of an Israeli should be justification for Israel to defend itself and kill more Palestinians and Lebanese. They're all clearly human shields anyways, right?

If you do value Palestinian and Lebanese lives as much as Israelis, your posts don't seem to state it. If Israeli settlers were sent exploding pagers, would you laud that operation or would you call it a terrorist attack?

You stated that I don’t care about brown lives. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Not to mention, plenty of Israelis have brown skin as well.

 

[finesse]

What am I spewing? Israel is at war. I believe they have the right to execute that war in the interest of their people.

Then they should have done it fifteen years ago or longer. They could have won this war any time they wanted to. They just didn't want to deal with public opinion so they've been boiling a frog. We learned to accept this grotesque situation. You've learned to cheer for it. I've learned to not associate Israel and Judaism and to not respect either side of this ongoing atrocious behavior on both sides.

Now, what do you see as the end game and how does this achieve it? I said this the other day. What they are doing is like abusing an animal over and over and expecting to make friends later. Are you anticipating putting them down like you know would happen to that animal?

 

[RaiGuy]

You stated that I don’t care about brown lives. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Not to mention, plenty of Israelis have brown skin as well.

Well, justifying Palestinian and Lebanese civilians deaths as "collateral damage" and "part of war" doesn't really scream "caring about brown lives".

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Well, justifying Palestinian and Lebanese civilians deaths as "collateral damage" and "part of war" doesn't really scream "caring about brown lives".

When was the last war that took place that didn't involve collateral damage? You either don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that there is a difference between targeting civilians (wrong) and targeting militants with civilians sometimes being caught in the crosshairs. The first action is terrorism and the second is legitimate warfare.

 

[RaiGuy]

When was the last war that took place that didn't involve collateral damage? You either don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that there is a difference between targeting civilians (wrong) and targeting militants with civilians sometimes being caught in the crosshairs. The first action is terrorism and the second is legitimate warfare.

If you don't see the irony in your post, I don't know what to tell you. You choose to ignore that Israel is targeting civilians because you blindly support them. There are countless examples and videos of them targeting civilians. Yet again, you only count it as terrorism from one side. Imagine if Palestinians killed around 20,000 Israeli children. That's basically a Dean Dome amount of children.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

If you don't see the irony in your post, I don't know what to tell you. You choose to ignore that Israel is targeting civilians because you blindly support them. There are countless examples and videos of them targeting civilians. Yet again, you only count it as terrorism from one side. Imagine if Palestinians killed around 20,000 Israeli children. That's basically a Dean Dome amount of children.

I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.

 

[finesse]

I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.

Now, maybe. Too much bad blood. Otoh, if 40 years ago, Hamas had had anything like a modern army, Israel would have backed off. You somehow seem to miss that Israel has been able to take them over for a half century or more and could have forced this to a conclusion. Why they have drawn this out and created such misery for both sides is beyond me. I don't know if it's idiocy or evil. The other side isn't a lot better. If there is any mitigation, it's that you can take young poor males with no worldly experience, not much hope for the future and an out of whack male to female ratio and teach them to hate anything.

 

[RaiGuy]

I'm sure there have been instances of Israel targeting civilians. The difference is that those are the exception rather than the norm. For Hamas, targeting civilians is the goal, the SOP. That is not the case with the IDF. Are there isolated instances of the IDF doing so? Absolutely. Just as there have been instances of the US military targeting civilians in every war we have been involved in. However, Hamas has openly stated numerous times that its goal is to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible. If Hamas had F-35s and laser-guided missiles, the death toll in Israel would be 10 times what it is in Gaza.

Instances?? Lol
Again, 20,000 children killed. How many instances are we talking about?? Is their aim that bad?

 

[Batt Boy]

Then they should have done it fifteen years ago or longer. They could have won this war any time they wanted to. They just didn't want to deal with public opinion so they've been boiling a frog. We learned to accept this grotesque situation. You've learned to cheer for it. I've learned to not associate Israel and Judaism and to not respect either side of this ongoing atrocious behavior on both sides.

Now, what do you see as the end game and how does this achieve it? I said this the other day. What they are doing is like abusing an animal over and over and expecting to make friends later. Are you anticipating putting them down like you know would happen to that animal?

Not sure there is any hope of an end game. I see continued suffering of the innocent. Pain. War. Death. For all sides.

 

[2ManyBlueCups]

Now, maybe. Too much bad blood. Otoh, if 40 years ago, Hamas had had anything like a modern army, Israel would have backed off. You somehow seem to miss that Israel has been able to take them over for a half century or more and could have forced this to a conclusion. Why they have drawn this out and created such misery for both sides is beyond me. I don't know if it's idiocy or evil. The other side isn't a lot better. If there is any mitigation, it's that you can take young poor males with no worldly experience, not much hope for the future and an out of whack male to female ratio and teach them to hate anything.

Yup, I am reading a great book right now about Jimmy Carter and the Camp David summit with Sadat and Begin. This issue should have been solved a couple of generations ago but it hasn't been. I don't particularly like either side but Israel's values align much more with our own than Hamas's. Israel is a democracy and Hamas is an Islamofascist terror group. We largely have the same values and the same enemies. That doesn't give Israel a carte blanche but it does make them the lesser of two evils by a wide margin in my book. We can't change the past but we can shape the future.