Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

[ZenMode]

That's because that poster (and you as well) are lumping in all those terror groups together when they each have their own agendas. You're making it sound like it's because the Muslims don't like the west and are attacking it. That is what Israel wants people to believe. However, the reason Hamas and Hezbollah exist is directly because of Israeli colonialism, occupation, and mistreatment of Palestinians and Lebanese. It's not because "they hate the Jews". The real Jewish hatred by the white Christian Europeans is a big reason why we are in the situation we are in now.

When you keep repeating the trope that Muslims hate the west and that is why they are attacking Israel, it only dehumanizes Palestinians more and minimizes the reaction to them being slaughtered. It's the same bullshit that Giuliani said that Palestinians at 2 years old are taught to kill Americans. What that does is justifies Israel killing children. None of this matters to you because it's not happening to you and it is evident in your comments.

I've said Muslim extremists "hate the west".

That's because that poster (and you as well) are lumping in all those terror groups together when they each have their own agendas. You're making it sound like it's because the Muslims don't like the west and are attacking it. That is what Israel wants people to believe. However, the reason Hamas and Hezbollah exist is directly because of Israeli colonialism, occupation, and mistreatment of Palestinians and Lebanese. It's not because "they hate the Jews". The real Jewish hatred by the white Christian Europeans is a big reason why we are in the situation we are in now.

When you keep repeating the trope that Muslims hate the west and that is why they are attacking Israel, it only dehumanizes Palestinians more and minimizes the reaction to them being slaughtered. It's the same bullshit that Giuliani said that Palestinians at 2 years old are taught to kill Americans. What that does is justifies Israel killing children. None of this matters to you because it's not happening to you and it is evident in your comments.

I've never said Hamas or Jihadists hate the west.

The agendas between various Jihadists/terrorist groups are surely different, though I don't see how that is relevant in a discussion about the problem of Islamic terrorism in general or specifically regarding Israel. Their (Jihadists/Islamic extremists) beliefs run antithetical to everything we value in civilized society. They violate the norms of war and use your own morality against you. Do you think it's easy for IDF soldiers to not be sure if the child walking on the street is actually a bomb?

As I've said before, Hamas has made it clear they will continue to try to wipe Israel off the map. Hamas are the ones who seek to commit genocide. A two state solution would only further empower Hamas to accomplish that goal. In fact, if Gaza took a peaceful approach to being Israel's neighbors, they'd probably already have their own state, but they didn't and probably won't. Gaza could have been the next Singapore with the billions in foreign aid its received. Rather than going that route, they built miles of tunnels, not for the civilians, for the Jihadists. Then they use civilians to protect the tunnels. If Israel tried a peaceful approach, put their weapons down and gave Gaza their state, it would be a matter of time before we witnessed a full-scale genocide and the end of Israel.

 

[RaiGuy]

I've said Muslim extremists "hate the west".

I've never said Hamas or Jihadists hate the west.

The agendas between various Jihadists/terrorist groups are surely different, though I don't see how that is relevant in a discussion about the problem of Islamic terrorism in general or specifically regarding Israel. Their (Jihadists/Islamic extremists) beliefs run antithetical to everything we value in civilized society. They violate the norms of war and use your own morality against you. Do you think it's easy for IDF soldiers to not be sure if the child walking on the street is actually a bomb?

As I've said before, Hamas has made it clear they will continue to try to wipe Israel off the map. Hamas are the ones who seek to commit genocide. A two state solution would only further empower Hamas to accomplish that goal. In fact, if Gaza took a peaceful approach to being Israel's neighbors, they'd probably already have their own state, but they didn't and probably won't. Gaza could have been the next Singapore with the billions in foreign aid its received. Rather than going that route, they built miles of tunnels, not for the civilians, for the Jihadists. Then they use civilians to protect the tunnels. If Israel tried a peaceful approach, put their weapons down and gave Gaza their state, it would be a matter of time before we witnessed a full-scale genocide and the end of Israel.

This thread is about Israel/Palestine, not a discussion about Islamic terrorism in general. My point in the post that you quoted me was saying that those attacks in Europe are not related at all to this situation. Also, making a remark that we are in a "civilized society" is a jab that Muslim countries are uncivilized and barbaric. That is another Islamophobic remark.

Furthermore, has there been ANY examples of a child carrying a bomb in Gaza? That's yet another stereotype that you are pushing that is used to justify killing Palestinian children.

There is just so much more nonsense in the rest of your post. Do you even know about the 2 years of peaceful protests in Gaza where Israeli soldiers would use snipers to silence the protestors? Your whole post is just a regurgitation of Israeli bullshit propaganda. Seriously, read up on the history before you keep making comments like you're making.

 

[ZenMode]

This thread is about Israel/Palestine, not a discussion about Islamic terrorism in general. My point in the post that you quoted me was saying that those attacks in Europe are not related at all to this situation. Also, making a remark that we are in a "civilized society" is a jab that Muslim countries are uncivilized and barbaric. That is another Islamophobic remark.

Furthermore, has there been ANY examples of a child carrying a bomb in Gaza? That's yet another stereotype that you are pushing that is used to justify killing Palestinian children.

There is just so much more nonsense in the rest of your post. Do you even know about the 2 years of peaceful protests in Gaza where Israeli soldiers would use snipers to silence the protestors? Your whole post is just a regurgitation of Israeli bullshit propaganda. Seriously, read up on the history before you keep making comments like you're making.

First, I meant to say I've never said anything about hating the west. That's overly simplistic.

The issue of Jihadism and martyrdom is the same, even if the tactics are slightly different from incident to incident. Have I heard of a child being used as a bomb in the Gaza war? No, but that is unquestionably a tool used by Jihadists and can't be ruled out by IDF. The IDF can't rule out that any civilian might be a bomb or be secretly armed.

Muslim extremists, whether they are Jihadists or not, have beliefs that undoubtedly run contrary to the goals of civilized society.

This thread is about Israel/Palestine, not a discussion about Islamic terrorism in general. My point in the post that you quoted me was saying that those attacks in Europe are not related at all to this situation. Also, making a remark that we are in a "civilized society" is a jab that Muslim countries are uncivilized and barbaric. That is another Islamophobic remark.

Furthermore, has there been ANY examples of a child carrying a bomb in Gaza? That's yet another stereotype that you are pushing that is used to justify killing Palestinian children.

There is just so much more nonsense in the rest of your post. Do you even know about the 2 years of peaceful protests in Gaza where Israeli soldiers would use snipers to silence the protestors? Your whole post is just a regurgitation of Israeli bullshit propaganda. Seriously, read up on the history before you keep making comments like you're making.

One correction - I meant to say I've never said Jihadists/Islamists hate the west. That's too vague and simplistic.

We are not going to agree on this. What you call nonsense from my post IS the crux of the issue on several levels, not just related to the specifics of the current war, but it has nothing to do with race or skin color and everything to do with ideology/theology.

 

[RaiGuy]

First, I meant to say I've never said anything about hating the west. That's overly simplistic.

The issue of Jihadism and martyrdom is the same, even if the tactics are slightly different from incident to incident. Have I heard of a child being used as a bomb in the Gaza war? No, but that is unquestionably a tool used by Jihadists and can't be ruled out by IDF. The IDF can't rule out that any civilian might be a bomb or be secretly armed.

Muslim extremists, whether they are Jihadists or not, have beliefs that undoubtedly run contrary to the goals of civilized society.

One correction - I meant to say I've never said Jihadists/Islamists hate the west. That's too vague and simplistic.

We are not going to agree on this. What you call nonsense from my post IS the crux of the issue on several levels, not just related to the specifics of the current war, but it has nothing to do with race or skin color and everything to do with ideology/theology.

Wow, so, you’re basically justifying Israel killing children because of unfounded claims that they may be hiding bombs? How can you not see that those claims are xenophobic?

 

[nycfan]

 

[ZenMode]

Wow, so, you’re basically justifying Israel killing children because of unfounded claims that they may be hiding bombs? How can you not see that those claims are xenophobic?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that war, especially urban warfare, is going to involve civilian deaths, including children. I'm also saying that there is no moral equivalency between the two sides in this war.

On one side, you have people who intentionally target civilians and children, while the other side does not.

On one side, you have people who celebrate - dancing in the street celebrating... Calling home to your parents celebrating - at the death of innocent civilians. On the other side you have people who do not.

On one side, you have people who revel in the suffering of hostages. You have people who parade hostages through the street, in front of cheering mobs, sometimes allowing them to be assaulted or worse. On the other side you do not.

Basically, on one side you have people who revel in war crimes, celebrate them and proudly broadcast them for all to see. On the other side, you have people who are apart of the culture that have aided in establishing the concept of war crimes and are inclined to prosecute those who commit them.

 

[RaiGuy]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that war, especially urban warfare, is going to involve civilian deaths, including children. I'm also saying that there is no moral equivalency between the two sides in this war.

On one side, you have people who intentionally target civilians and children, while the other side does not.

On one side, you have people who celebrate - dancing in the street celebrating... Calling home to your parents celebrating - at the death of innocent civilians. On the other side you have people who do not.

On one side, you have people who revel in the suffering of hostages. You have people who parade hostages through the street, in front of cheering mobs, sometimes allowing them to be assaulted or worse. On the other side you do not.

Basically, on one side you have people who revel in war crimes, celebrate them and proudly broadcast them for all to see. On the other side, you have people who are apart of the culture that have aided in establishing the concept of war crimes and are inclined to prosecute those who commit them.

Your post screams "Tell me you only watch Fox News without telling me you only watch Fox News"

Israel targets civilians all the time. To say otherwise just means you're turning a blind eye. Israel is the leading cause of children's death in the world in the last year. 2/3rd of the people killed are children, women, and elderly. There are countless others being starved. Don't come here with that bullshit that Israel is holier than thou. They are just as bad, if not worse, than Hamas.

Israeli war crimes:


Oh, you're saying Israeli's don't celebrate? Hmm








x.com

I can keep going, but you will deny it anyways.

 

[ZenMode]

Your post screams "Tell me you only watch Fox News without telling me you only watch Fox News"

Israel targets civilians all the time. To say otherwise just means you're turning a blind eye. Israel is the leading cause of children's death in the world in the last year. 2/3rd of the people killed are children, women, and elderly. There are countless others being starved. Don't come here with that bullshit that Israel is holier than thou. They are just as bad, if not worse, than Hamas.

Israeli war crimes:


Oh, you're saying Israeli's don't celebrate? Hmm








x.com

I can keep going, but you will deny it anyways.

Other than for morbid curiosity, I don't want Fox news.

Israel kills civilians. The US killed civilians. Every country that has ever participated in war has killed civilians. That's part of war... every war. The fact that civilians are killed doesn't mean they are being targeted. Again, if Israel was actually targeting civilians, the death tolls would be significantly higher. They don't target civilians. They try to warn civilians so they aren't killed.

Hamas, because of their belief in martyrdom, doesn't value life the way other cultures do. That's why they have no problem putting their women and children in harms way and using their subsequent deaths for PR. The fact that the world can't stomach the sight of dead children, and the subsequent pressure to stop fighting, is part of the reason that Israel has never been able to truly win the war against Hamas.

Israelis celebrating Israel's response to the Hamas terrorist attack, even if you think it's in bad taste, isn't comparable. Entire sports stadiums celebrated when the US killed bin Laden after 9/11.

 

[RaiGuy]

Other than for morbid curiosity, I don't want Fox news.

Israel kills civilians. The US killed civilians. Every country that has ever participated in war has killed civilians. That's part of war... every war. The fact that civilians are killed doesn't mean they are being targeted. Again, if Israel was actually targeting civilians, the death tolls would be significantly higher. They don't target civilians. They try to warn civilians so they aren't killed.

Hamas, because of their belief in martyrdom, doesn't value life the way other cultures do. That's why they have no problem putting their women and children in harms way and using their subsequent deaths for PR. The fact that the world can't stomach the sight of dead children, and the subsequent pressure to stop fighting, is part of the reason that Israel has never been able to truly win the war against Hamas.

Israelis celebrating Israel's response to the Hamas terrorist attack, even if you think it's in bad taste, isn't comparable. Entire sports stadiums celebrated when the US killed bin Laden after 9/11.

Just because they haven't killed every civilian in Gaza, doesn't mean they aren't targeting them. That argument doesn't make sense. The whole "warning" thing has been covered extensively before and is just bullshit. When people get a warning, where are they supposed to go? There are no "safe" areas. If a foreign country gave you a 15 minute warning to leave your neighborhood (but all the roads are cut off and you have to go by foot while carrying children and helping the elderly), you would be ok with it? Would you be ok with Oct 7th if Hamas warned the people first?

Your second paragraph adds to the dehumanization of Palestinians. It's ok to kill them because they don't value their lives. You're also saying the reason Israel hasn't killed more women and children is because of PR reasons.

Your last paragraph is justifying Israeli's celebrations because it's all good, it's just human animal Palestinians being slaughtered.

I'm done responding to your xenophobic and stereotypical comments.

 

[RaiGuy]

 

[ZenMode]

Just because they haven't killed every civilian in Gaza, doesn't mean they aren't targeting them. That argument doesn't make sense.

Strawman. It's not that they haven't killed "every" citizen. They haven't even come close despite the fact that a) the population is incredibly dense and b) IDF absolutely has the means to commit genocide tomorrow if they wanted to.

The whole "warning" thing has been covered extensively before and is just bullshit. When people get a warning, where are they supposed to go? There are no "safe" areas. If a foreign country gave you a 15 minute warning to leave your neighborhood (but all the roads are cut off and you have to go by foot while carrying children and helping the elderly), you would be ok with it? Would you be ok with Oct 7th if Hamas warned the people first?

It's not BS. It clearly works because in more than a year of fighting, less than 2% of the population has been killed in an area where there are 15,000 people per square mile.

Your second paragraph adds to the dehumanization of Palestinians. It's ok to kill them because they don't value their lives. You're also saying the reason Israel hasn't killed more women and children is because of PR reasons.

I've never said it's "ok" to kill them. Civilian deaths are part of war. The US had to kill a lot of civilians to stop the Nazis. If we stopped fighting because the rest of the world couldn't stomach the site of dead civilians, we'd all likely be in the 1000 year reich right now. A belief in martyrdom by Jihadists and some Muslim civilians make the likelihood of civilian deaths more likely.

Your last paragraph is justifying Israeli's celebrations because it's all good, it's just human animal Palestinians being slaughtered.

I'm done responding to your xenophobic and stereotypical comments.

I didn't say the celebrations were necessarily ok. You could argue that they are in bad taste, but bad taste doesn't equate those behaviors to the behaviors of the Jihadists or those who support them.

 

[ZenMode]

“The only time Yasser Arafat didn’t tell me the truth was when he promised he was going to accept the peace deal that we had worked out,” Clinton said, referring to the late Palestinian leader.

He told rallygoers that the deal “would have given the Palestinians a state on 96 percent of the West Bank and 4% of Israel, and they got to choose where the 4% of Israel was.” Additionally, he noted, the Palestinians “would have a capital in East Jerusalem,” and “they said no.”

 

[superrific]

“The only time Yasser Arafat didn’t tell me the truth was when he promised he was going to accept the peace deal that we had worked out,” Clinton said, referring to the late Palestinian leader.

He told rallygoers that the deal “would have given the Palestinians a state on 96 percent of the West Bank and 4% of Israel, and they got to choose where the 4% of Israel was.” Additionally, he noted, the Palestinians “would have a capital in East Jerusalem,” and “they said no.”

That is not my recollection. I think Bill is here overhyping what was actually on the table for Arafat in that deal. There are plenty of knowledgeable people who blame Israel or even Clinton for the failure of the accord (not sure why you would blame Clinton; it's obvious he was the only reason it was happening). Personally, I tend to come down on the side of "Arafat was most responsible" though there is plenty of blame to go around. Nonetheless, this was an exaggeration.

 

[stankeylegjones]

You can read the details here: Clinton Proposal on Israeli-Palestinian Peace

From wiki (linking the article above): The Clinton Parameters proposed a Palestinian state comprising between 94–96% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. Israel would annex the remaining land, which would include Israeli settlements, containing 80% of the settler population, mainly in major settlement blocs. Israel would cede 1–3% of land to the Palestinians in land swaps to partially compensate for the annexations. The Palestinian state would have to be contiguous, and annexed areas along with the number of Palestinians affected would be as minimized as possible.

 

[nycfan]

 

[altmin]

Israel bombed a polio vaccination site today.

Vaccination centre and aid official’s car bombarded in Gaza, says UN

Unicef director says three children injured after polio clinic came under fire despite promised humanitarian pause

www.theguardian.com

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Israel bombed a polio vaccination site today.

Vaccination centre and aid official’s car bombarded in Gaza, says UN

Unicef director says three children injured after polio clinic came under fire despite promised humanitarian pause

www.theguardian.com

Israel has denied this.

 

[nycfan]

 

[Mundial]

What is the logical reason to continue to provide military aide to an ally that disregards any restrictions you propose regarding the use of that aide and/or any input on the underlying military campaign?

Of course the most obvious answer is that there is an overriding interest in seeing that ally prevail but I would be interested in viewpoints on this. For example, Ukraine has had to abide by every restriction that has been imposed by the West (including the US) on use of their weapons against Russia.

 

[superrific]

What is the logical reason to continue to provide military aide to an ally that disregards any restrictions you propose regarding the use of that aide and/or any input on the underlying military campaign?

Of course the most obvious answer is that there is an overriding interest in seeing that ally prevail but I would be interested in viewpoints on this. For example, Ukraine has had to abide by every restriction that has been imposed by the West (including the US) on use of their weapons against Russia.

Russia has nukes. That's, I think, the entire distinction. It's not an unreasonable one, I don't think.