Mass Shooting & Gun Violence | LDS Church Attacked

[heelinhell]

It is great that some people live in such security that they can make fun of those who don't. Ivory towers, and such. "Why would ahhyyee ever need to wear a life jacket, Jeeves? Of course I would just call the chopper to rescue me if this boat ever took on wahhh-ter."

Just to be clear I am mocking those who own guns who " live in such security " .

My guess is that cohort owns the majority of the 330+ million guns in America. I submit those are insecure about their masculinity and guns help assure them that they are potent. The other part of that cohort is the irrationally paranoid and subject to the claims that the boogeymen are coming to get you. But that contention is for another thread.

No doubt that there are many criminals who own guns. Let us focus on that.

No doubt there are those at risk for violent home intruders and own guns for their protection. I submit that those live in areas with inadequate police protection and even police indifference, but that contention is for another thread.

 

[wmheel1287]

I’m fine with that, provided there are carve-outs for going to and from a range or something like that.

That would be great progress in my opinion

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Fine, but then don't say you're a big fan of science. The test of believing in science isn't when the science comports with your intuition or experience. It's when the science challenges your views otherwise established.

That sentence isn't exactly anti-science, but it's more anti-science than pro-science.

I don't care what you do in your home. I do care when you say silly things like guns need big mags because people can't shoot straight.

Guns need adequate mags for two reasons.

1. Unless you shoot someone directly in the head or in the heart, people don't simply fall down and die after being shot once. It often takes numerous hits to incapacitate someone, particularly when you are using a handgun.

2. It is objectively much more difficult to be as accurate under fire as you are when you are simply at a firing range with no one shooting at you and a target that isn't continuously moving.

These statements are not opinions. They are facts, grounded in science.

 

[heelinhell]

That's great, but someone who reads a lot of studies who has never seen or experienced the kind of violence that is relatively common in the United States is not going to convince me to forego my ability to defend myself or my family. To each their own.

My apologies ... please disregard my previous post.

I did not realize you are living in a dangerous situation where you are concerned and need to defend yourself and your family from home intruders with guns

What is the high risk you are facing ? Have you encountered home invaders before ? Do you have little or no confidence that police where you live can protect you ?

I think if you could inform the board of your existential circumstances whereby you need guns to protect you and your family, it would help us and, certainly me, to be more understanding of your perspective.

 

[superrific]

Guns need adequate mags for two reasons.

1. Unless you shoot someone directly in the head or in the heart, people don't simply fall down and die after being shot once. It often takes numerous hits to incapacitate someone, particularly when you are using a handgun.

2. It is objectively much more difficult to be as accurate under fire as you are when you are simply at a firing range with no one shooting at you and a target that isn't continuously moving.

These statements are not opinions. They are facts, grounded in science.

And also being nervous that it's the real thing, I'd imagine. So, no I don't disagree with either of those statements. While I can't specifically vouch for their factual nature, I'm unwilling to dispute them.

But those two statements don't nearly resolve the issue. For one thing, killing a home invader really should not be the goal.

 

[superrific]

My apologies ... please disregard my previous post.

I did not realize you are living in a dangerous situation where you are concerned and need to defend yourself and your family from home intruders with guns

What is the high risk you are facing ? Have you encountered home invaders before ? Do you have little or no confidence that police where you live can protect you ?

I think if you could inform the board of your existential circumstances whereby you need guns to protect you and your family, it would help us and, certainly me, to be more understanding of your perspective.

He did mention that his wife used a gun to deter a home invader. It's obviously impossible to verify that, but he has said it on multiple occasions. To be fair.

 

[heelinhell]

He did mention that his wife used a gun to deter a home invader. It's obviously impossible to verify that, but he has said it on multiple occasions. To be fair.

Thanks, super...

I did not know that and for me that makes a difference in the discussion. I hope he reads my previous post and feels comfortable giving some detail about his family's existential circumstances whereby his wife had to use a gun to deter a home invader.

I hope everything turned out ok for his family having to go through such a harrowing experience.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Thanks, super...

I did not know that and for me that makes a difference in the discussion. I hope he reads my previous post and feels comfortable giving some detail about his family's existential circumstances whereby his wife had to use a gun to deter a home invader.

I hope everything turned out ok for his family having to go through such a harrowing experience.

It ended up being alright. The gist of the story is that while I was at work overnight my wife was greeted by a strange noise that ended up being a man in a hoodie with a mask and what appeared to be a slim Jim or small crowbar in the tall bushes that abut the living room. She already had the gun on account of the noise and the dog going ballistic (she keeps the pistol on the nightstand when I am working). She locked eyes with the guy, screamed, brandished the gun. He hesitated for a split second before booking it. The porch and exterior lights were on and her car was in the driveway, so it should have been very evident that someone was home.

Anyways, no shots were fired. I was about 15 minutes away and the police surprisingly beat me to my home. When she called 911, the call taker/dispatcher stayed on the phone with her until the first officers arrived and then instructed her to put the gun away and answer the door. K9 ran a track that vanished about a block away. Security cameras captured the entire incident on video but the mask and hoodie rendered the person unrecognizable. That was several years ago and thankfully we haven't had any problems since. We live in a safe neighborhood but one that is within walking distance of a not so safe neighborhood, close enough that we like to play "fireworks or gunshots" on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Biggest problem we have here is typically porch pirates, although a few years back another resident on our street was beaten nearly to death by two home invaders that he surprised when he returned home from work in the middle of the day.

 

[roostra]

It ended up being alright. The gist of the story is that while I was at work overnight my wife was greeted by a strange noise that ended up being a man in a hoodie with a mask and what appeared to be a slim Jim or small crowbar in the tall bushes that abut the living room. She already had the gun on account of the noise and the dog going ballistic (she keeps the pistol on the nightstand when I am working). She locked eyes with the guy, screamed, brandished the gun. He hesitated for a split second before booking it. The porch and exterior lights were on and her car was in the driveway, so it should have been very evident that someone was home.

Anyways, no shots were fired. I was about 15 minutes away and the police surprisingly beat me to my home. When she called 911, the call taker/dispatcher stayed on the phone with her until the first officers arrived and then instructed her to put the gun away and answer the door. K9 ran a track that vanished about a block away. Security cameras captured the entire incident on video but the mask and hoodie rendered the person unrecognizable. That was several years ago and thankfully we haven't had any problems since. We live in a safe neighborhood but one that is within walking distance of a not so safe neighborhood, close enough that we like to play "fireworks or gunshots" on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Biggest problem we have here is typically porch pirates, although a few years back another resident on our street was beaten nearly to death by two home invaders that he surprised when he returned home from work in the middle of the day.

Isn't this an example that would support the position of those arguing for restricted magazine sizes and weapon types? Presumably she had a pistol without an extended magazine. It sounds like it was the existence of the weapon itself, not the type of weapon that caused a good outcome.

 

[akillesheel]

maybe it's just me, but i'd rather lose the most valuable thing in my home (a tv? some jewelry? all at least mostly covered by home insurance?) than shoot to kill the hypothetical invader taking it.

 

[UNCRx85]

What can be done is a massive increase in support for proactive and preventative mental health care, enhanced red flag laws and regulations that make obtaining *new* gun ownership more difficult, strongly harsher penalties for improper gun use or possession, etc. But Republicans don’t even want to take those relatively menial actions. They’d rather throw up their hands and offer “thoughts and prayers.”

They're not interested in solving any real problems. They owe their positions in congress largely to donations by people in the gun industry and/or those adjacent, who almost always have overlapping interests. They're on a right-wing gravy train of money, power, and god knows what else. If any of them actually speak their conscience (huge assumption, i know), they're thrown off the gravy train and MAGA lunatics are phoning in death threats to them and their family.

The whole thing is set up to richly reward those who willingly spew the bullshit, and to royally fuck over those who actually have sane, reasonable takes on the matter. Elected republicans are not there to serve their constituents. They're there keep them outraged, and to get rich in the process. And fuck the rest of y'all. And your kids.

They'd gladly sacrifice my children and yours if that meant boosting their chances at re-election and 6 more years of grift.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Isn't this an example that would support the position of those arguing for restricted magazine sizes and weapon types? Presumably she had a pistol without an extended magazine. It sounds like it was the existence of the weapon itself, not the type of weapon that caused a good outcome.

I think it holds 14+1. I'm not quite sure, I haven't shot it since shortly after we bought it and when I'm home it never leaves the safe. Anyways, that's a pretty standard size magazine for a handgun. And you are correct that more than likely the simple existence of the weapon caused the good outcome. He may have even run away if she wasn't armed. Or he may have gone after her. You can "what if" it to death with a million possible scenarios. That said, she isn't exactly John Wick, and if it had resulted in a situation in which she had to open fire, 5 shots is not enough for reasons I already went over. The police are trained in engaging in gun battles with handguns while under fire or under duress and their accuracy still sucks.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

maybe it's just me, but i'd rather lose the most valuable thing in my home (a tv? some jewelry? all at least mostly covered by home insurance?) than shoot to kill the hypothetical invader taking it.

I'm glad that criminals in your neighborhood wear placards that clearly broadcast their intentions, that way everyone knows what exactly they intend to do when they break into your home. That said, no one is forcing you to own a gun. I hope you never experience a home invasion, but if you do then you are more than welcome to sit passively by and hope that the intruder(s) do no harm to you or those you care about.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

For those who believe that 5 shots are enough in a gun battle with an armed opponent (or opponents), there are plenty of examples to the contrary.

Trained State Trooper takes 51 shots to drop someone during a one on one gunfight:


Other examples:



Two cops can't take down a gunman from 5 feet away:

 

[heelinhell]

It ended up being alright. The gist of the story is that while I was at work overnight my wife was greeted by a strange noise that ended up being a man in a hoodie with a mask and what appeared to be a slim Jim or small crowbar in the tall bushes that abut the living room. She already had the gun on account of the noise and the dog going ballistic (she keeps the pistol on the nightstand when I am working). She locked eyes with the guy, screamed, brandished the gun. He hesitated for a split second before booking it. The porch and exterior lights were on and her car was in the driveway, so it should have been very evident that someone was home.

Anyways, no shots were fired. I was about 15 minutes away and the police surprisingly beat me to my home. When she called 911, the call taker/dispatcher stayed on the phone with her until the first officers arrived and then instructed her to put the gun away and answer the door. K9 ran a track that vanished about a block away. Security cameras captured the entire incident on video but the mask and hoodie rendered the person unrecognizable. That was several years ago and thankfully we haven't had any problems since. We live in a safe neighborhood but one that is within walking distance of a not so safe neighborhood, close enough that we like to play "fireworks or gunshots" on July 4th and New Year's Eve. Biggest problem we have here is typically porch pirates, although a few years back another resident on our street was beaten nearly to death by two home invaders that he surprised when he returned home from work in the middle of the day.

I appreciate you sharing your story and I am glad no one in your family suffered injury, but I imagine that experience is one that is everlasting. Do you think it was the gun that scared him away or was it seeing and hearing your wife coming out and screaming at him ?

So happy you have had no problems since then. I hope your beaten neighbors recovered and are ok today.

Selfishly, I am grateful that I do not live in a neighborhood that you do.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

I appreciate you sharing your story and I am glad no one in your family suffered injury, but I imagine that experience is one that is everlasting. Do you think it was the gun that scared him away or was it seeing and hearing your wife coming out and screaming at him ?

So happy you have had no problems since then. I hope your beaten neighbors recovered and are ok today.

Selfishly, I am grateful that I do not live in a neighborhood that you do.

Thank you. I have no idea if it was the gun, the scream, or the combination of the two. She's definitely more resilient than I am, as she has to stay home by herself at least a third of the year. She was rattled for a few weeks but is totally fine now.

I'm not sure what happened to the neighbor who was beaten. He ended up with a pretty significant brain injury and he and his wife never returned to the neighborhood. I did not know them and I did not keep up with them. They did capture and charge one of the attackers, however.

I don't mind the neighborhood. Bad things can happen anywhere. Like I said, aside from the one hiccup we have never had a problem. I have worked in very low income, high-crime neighborhoods for 90% of my career though so I guess that just gives me a different perspective. I've learned that most of the people in the neighborhoods that I was taught to steer clear of growing up are great people that are just caught up in poverty or bad circumstances. They don't like criminals either. Everyone is just doing the best they can.

 

[akillesheel]

I'm glad that criminals in your neighborhood wear placards that clearly broadcast their intentions, that way everyone knows what exactly they intend to do when they break into your home. That said, no one is forcing you to own a gun. I hope you never experience a home invasion, but if you do then you are more than welcome to sit passively by and hope that the intruder(s) do no harm to you or those you care about.

it doesn't take a placard, just a smidgen of empathy and the kind of theory of mind one is supposed to develop around age 12. with the exceptions of targeted attacks like those that cops and gangs do, people are not breaking into homes to do violent crimes, they're doing it out of desperation for property and capital. the vanishingly few people who are seeking out victims to rape and murder do so in isolated, publicly accessible areas, not in their homes.

maybe my original point should have been clearer: my belief that human life is more valuable than property, even somebody i don't know (or somebody you might dehumanize by calling a "criminal") against my own property, is not simply one that applies to my refusal to own a gun, but one that i believe should inform gun policy in this country.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

it doesn't take a placard, just a smidgen of empathy and the kind of theory of mind one is supposed to develop around age 12. with the exceptions of targeted attacks like those that cops and gangs do, people are not breaking into homes to do violent crimes, they're doing it out of desperation for property and capital. the vanishingly few people who are seeking out victims to rape and murder do so in isolated, publicly accessible areas, not in their homes.

maybe my original point should have been clearer: my belief that human life is more valuable than property, even somebody i don't know (or somebody you might dehumanize by calling a "criminal") against my own property, is not simply one that applies to my refusal to own a gun, but one that i believe should inform gun policy in this country.

When someone breaks into my home and threatens the safety of those I care about, my empathy is gone. They made a decision. I’m not taking chances with the lives of the ones I love. Tough shit. To each their own, though.

There was a case that my crew responded to while I was on vacation. Home invader broke in, family of 3 was home. Believe it was targeted as the intruder asked for and received the combination to the safe. They got exactly what they wanted and still killed two out of three on the way out of the house.

 

[Duke Mu]

I'm sure elevating access to the mentally unstable had no effect.

Trump signs bill revoking Obama-era gun checks for mental illness

The new law nullifies an Obama-backed rule that added people with mental illnesses to the national background check database.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[nycfan]

“…GORKA: No ... when you concentrate at mass shootings at schools, specifically Christian or Catholic schools, then the data set is different

KEILAR: When you look at 32 school shootings since 2020, only 3 of them committed by transgender shooters

GORKA: Forgive me if I don't go with CNN's stats

KEILAR: It's simple math…”