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Ramrouser said:
Trump's "threats" to NATO countries caused them to increase defense spending. In 2017 only 12 NATO allies met the NATO guideline to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense. Today it's 23.
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The agreement was signed in 2014 to increase spending by 2024. The progress toward that goal over the decade was mostly linear and incremental, being prodded by the situation in Ukraine. Trump very clearly had nothing to do with it and that's demonstrable.
 
nycfan said:
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I wonder how much, if any, of Zuckerber's transition to libertarianism and "free" speech in his platforms is related to what happened with the FBI and the Hunter laptop story. He seemed to feel a little burned by that.
 
Ramrouser said:
Wow, 40% of this Country are "degenerate Americans." Good to know. Thanks for the honesty.
I'm a proud MAGA American but I do like to have some fun with it. I mean Trump Jr. flying to Greenland today with Charlie Kirk and a band of 30 something Bros is pretty funny. They've already met with MAGA hat wearing locals at a restaurant - which Trump spoke with them by phone. They're now going to meet with the leader of Greenland. That's entertaining. Not everything Trump does is a "threat to democracy" or an "Orbanization" of the US. When you strip away all the bluster, crassness, showmanship and "Art of the Deal" negotiation strategies, Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas. The things you wrote above about MAGA is what Dems have said (in some form) about every Republican in my lifetime - including Romney. You may not like Republican ideas but the Country will survive and thrive regardless of which party is in power.
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Fair enough on the first point. I'll amend that to "Americans who are willing to vote for an unabashed, unequivocally degenerate, immoral authoritarian to serve as president of the most powerful nation in the history of the world."
 
superrific said:
Evidence?
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The NATO spending discussion maybe should be in the foreign policy thread, but since it is here and you asked, as a quick response:

"... Official NATO data show that non-US members’ defense spending increased in each of the two years prior to Trump’s presidency – by 1.6% in 2015 and 3.0% in 2016. The increases came after NATO members recommitted to the 2%-of-GDP guideline at the 2014 summit in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region.

Non-US members’ defense spending increases in each year of the Trump era were bigger than their increases in 2015 and 2016 – the increases were 5.9% in 2017, 4.3% in 2018, 3.6% in 2019 and 4.6% in 2020 – and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg gave Trump at least partial credit. But Trump is wrong when he claims he reversed a downward trend. ..."


Obama had also made this part of the discussion and Trump expanded and amplified it, albeit based on a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the 2% goal and how it actually works. But making it part of the discussion seems to have kept up the preexisting pressure and moved the needle in the right direction, if you agree with the pretty consistent general US position about NATO partner spending on their own defense budgets.
 
Ramrouser said:
Wow, 40% of this Country are "degenerate Americans." Good to know. Thanks for the honesty.
I'm a proud MAGA American but I do like to have some fun with it. I mean Trump Jr. flying to Greenland today with Charlie Kirk and a band of 30 something Bros is pretty funny. They've already met with MAGA hat wearing locals at a restaurant - which Trump spoke with them by phone. They're now going to meet with the leader of Greenland. That's entertaining. Not everything Trump does is a "threat to democracy" or an "Orbanization" of the US. When you strip away all the bluster, crassness, showmanship and "Art of the Deal" negotiation strategies, Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas. The things you wrote above about MAGA is what Dems have said (in some form) about every Republican in my lifetime - including Romney. You may not like Republican ideas but the Country will survive and thrive regardless of which party is in power.
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I'd gladly take Romney for the next 4 years. Give me Dubya for four more.
 
Ramrouser said:
Wow, 40% of this Country are "degenerate Americans." Good to know. Thanks for the honesty.
I'm a proud MAGA American but I do like to have some fun with it. I mean Trump Jr. flying to Greenland today with Charlie Kirk and a band of 30 something Bros is pretty funny. They've already met with MAGA hat wearing locals at a restaurant - which Trump spoke with them by phone. They're now going to meet with the leader of Greenland. That's entertaining. Not everything Trump does is a "threat to democracy" or an "Orbanization" of the US. When you strip away all the bluster, crassness, showmanship and "Art of the Deal" negotiation strategies, Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas. The things you wrote above about MAGA is what Dems have said (in some form) about every Republican in my lifetime - including Romney. You may not like Republican ideas but the Country will survive and thrive regardless of which party is in power.
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1. If you think that Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas, you're a bigger idiot than I thought. Gee, have you wondered why so many Republicans, especially in the political class, became Never Trump? There are posters fitting that description on this board.

2. Bet you didn't know that "Art of the Deal" was the title given to the book by the ghostwriter. As everyone in the know has long understood, Trump is actually not a dealmaker.

3. You are correct that not **everything** that Trump does is Orbanization. But what is the right percentage? In my view, our leaders should be 0% fascist. You seem to be quite content with them being majority fascist, just as long as they are non fascist some of the time.

4. It's funny to you, because you and your kind don't give a shit about other people. The idea of the US acquiring Greenland is traumatizing to most Greenlanders, but as long as your buddies get some shits and giggles out of it, it's all good, right? Who cares about other people anyway, especially if they ain't white.
 
MOUNTAINH33L said:
I'd gladly take Romney for the next 4 years. Hell. Give me Dubya for four more.
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rouser lies like he breathes.

absolutely no one thought romney or dubya were existential threats or attempting to orbanize the country. there were disagreements on policy and ideals, of course. but we were not careening toward fascism like we are under maga rule.

this is all very new and frightening and uncharted territory.
 
nycfan said:
The NATO spending discussion maybe should be in the foreign policy thread, but since it is here and you asked, as a quick response:

"... Official NATO data show that non-US members’ defense spending increased in each of the two years prior to Trump’s presidency – by 1.6% in 2015 and 3.0% in 2016. The increases came after NATO members recommitted to the 2%-of-GDP guideline at the 2014 summit in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea region.

Non-US members’ defense spending increases in each year of the Trump era were bigger than their increases in 2015 and 2016 – the increases were 5.9% in 2017, 4.3% in 2018, 3.6% in 2019 and 4.6% in 2020 – and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg gave Trump at least partial credit. But Trump is wrong when he claims he reversed a downward trend. ..."


Obama had also made this part of the discussion and Trump expanded and amplified it, albeit based on a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the 2% goal and how it actually works. But making it part of the discussion seems to have kept up the preexisting pressure and moved the needle in the right direction, if you agree with the pretty consistent general US position about NATO partner spending on their own defense budgets.
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1. Whatever Stoltenberg said at a news conference with Trump right there should be discounted. It's not just a Trump thing -- those sorts of joint conferences are usually occasions for mutual fluffing. Sometimes diplomacy requires fluffing. But we also know that European leaders routinely managed Trump by creating bogus things to give him credit for, knowing that he had no idea what was actually happening.

2. That their spending increased more in 2017 than 2016 is not at all surprising, and it proves the opposite of what that link is trying to claim. As everyone knows, defense budgets are set well in advance. European countries don't have the same dysfunctional legislatures as the US, so they get their shit done on time.

The 2017 budget for the French government, including its defense spending, was established in September 2016. Germany's 2017 budget was approved on Feb 2, 2017. Spain's 2017 budget was put together in December 2016, and the budget was approved in March 2017.

I would expect that virtually every country in NATO had its 2017 defense spending established before 2017 began. And since 2017 was the largest increase, and after 2017 it declined, it's pretty fucking obvious that Trump had nothing to do with it. In fact, NATO allies' spending rates DROPPED during his time in office.
 
Ramrouser said:
Wow, 40% of this Country are "degenerate Americans." Good to know. Thanks for the honesty.
I'm a proud MAGA American but I do like to have some fun with it. I mean Trump Jr. flying to Greenland today with Charlie Kirk and a band of 30 something Bros is pretty funny. They've already met with MAGA hat wearing locals at a restaurant - which Trump spoke with them by phone. They're now going to meet with the leader of Greenland. That's entertaining. Not everything Trump does is a "threat to democracy" or an "Orbanization" of the US. When you strip away all the bluster, crassness, showmanship and "Art of the Deal" negotiation strategies, Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas. The things you wrote above about MAGA is what Dems have said (in some form) about every Republican in my lifetime - including Romney. You may not like Republican ideas but the Country will survive and thrive regardless of which party is in power.
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Maybe but it always does worse under Republicans.
 
4thgenheel said:
rouser lies like he breathes.

absolutely no one thought romney or dubya were existential threats or attempting to orbanize the country. there were disagreements on policy and ideals, of course. but we were not careening toward fascism like we are under maga rule.

this is all very new and frightening and uncharted territory.
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I will say that his taking Trump as a joke and entertainment (bread and circuses) is typical of most Trump supporters I know. They regard politics as entertainment and can't imagine why liberals take it so seriously. And of course the reason is because they can afford to not take it seriously as they're not one of the groups - transgenders and the LGBTQ community generally, teachers and professors and others who work in education, immigrants (including legal ones, like the Haitians in Ohio during the campaign) - that have been targeted by Trump and MAGA Nation for harassment and threats and persecution. It's easy to regard Trump as "fun" and entertaining when you're not in the line of fire. If a Democrat were doing and saying the things about white Republicans that Trump has said about liberals and allied groups then there is little doubt that most Trumpers on here would be screaming bloody murder and expressing indignant outrage on a daily basis. Or put simply, it's all fun and games until suddenly you're the target of his attacks.

ETA: I should add that I do know Trumpers who do worship and adore him and regard him as a savior and demonstrate all the traits of someone in a cult of personality, but even these people love and laugh at his threats and blustering and bullying of other people and groups they hate.
 
Ramrouser said:
Trump's "threats" to NATO countries caused them to increase defense spending. In 2017 only 12 NATO allies met the NATO guideline to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense. Today it's 23.
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A minute ago you characterized this as "only 23," now you're blazoning it. Make up your mind...
 
finesse said:
And how much progress does that represent in the last few years?

ETA: Seems like MAGA wants to claim credit for something that's already mostly fixed.
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Ramrouser said:
Trump's "threats" to NATO countries caused them to increase defense spending. In 2017 only 12 NATO allies met the NATO guideline to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense. Today it's 23.
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Like clockwork...
 
superrific said:
1. If you think that Trump has fairly mainstream Republican ideas, you're a bigger idiot than I thought. Gee, have you wondered why so many Republicans, especially in the political class, became Never Trump? There are posters fitting that description on this board.
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He does and that's why the overwhelming majority of traditional Republicans voted for him (twice). Never Trumpers are a loud, but very small minority of Republicans. They're grossly overrepresented in legacy media.
superrific said:
2. Bet you didn't know that "Art of the Deal" was the title given to the book by the ghostwriter. As everyone in the know has long understood, Trump is actually not a dealmaker.
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Doesn't really matter if Art of the Deal was written with the help of a ghostwriter. Most celebrity books are written in such a manner.
superrific said:
3. You are correct that not **everything** that Trump does is Orbanization. But what is the right percentage? In my view, our leaders should be 0% fascist. You seem to be quite content with them being majority fascist, just as long as they are non fascist some of the time.
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I hate left wing fascism, i.e. Big Government liberals who enjoy ordering "little people" around and regulating all aspects of daily life. This revealed itself during COVID and Americans took notice.
superrific said:
4. It's funny to you, because you and your kind don't give a shit about other people. The idea of the US acquiring Greenland is traumatizing to most Greenlanders, but as long as your buddies get some shits and giggles out of it, it's all good, right? Who cares about other people anyway, especially if they ain't white.
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As far as Greenlanders being "traumatized" by Trump's moves to acquire the Country, let's see how this plays out. You could be correct, if most Greenlanders don't want it to happen it won't happen. I don't think the US wants to be an occupying power over a hostile population. A quick Google search reveals that 99%+ of Greenland is white. However, I note there are 373 people living there from the Philippines and 208 from Thailand.
 
Ramrouser said:
He does and that's why the overwhelming majority of traditional Republicans voted for him (twice). Never Trumpers are a loud, but very small minority of Republicans. They're grossly overrepresented in legacy media.

Doesn't really matter if Art of the Deal was written with the help of a ghostwriter. Most celebrity books are written in such a manner.

I hate left wing fascism, i.e. Big Government liberals who enjoy ordering "little people" around and regulating all aspects of daily life. This revealed itself during COVID and Americans took notice.

As far as Greenlanders being "traumatized" by Trump's moves to acquire the Country, let's see how this plays out. You could be correct, if most Greenlanders don't want it to happen it won't happen. I don't think the US wants to be an occupying power over a hostile population. A quick Google search reveals that 99%+ of Greenland is white. However, I note there are 373 people living there from the Philippines and 208 from Thailand.
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there is no such thing as left wing fascism.

fascism is by definition a far-right, authoritarian, ultra-nationalist and militaristic political movement defined by contempt for electoral democracy and political and cultural liberalism and belief in a natural social hierarchy and rule by the elites.

the bogeyman you're searching for is communism or marxism. the united states has never even been remotely in danger of succumbing to either.
 
Ramrouser said:
He does and that's why the overwhelming majority of traditional Republicans voted for him (twice). Never Trumpers are a loud, but very small minority of Republicans. They're grossly overrepresented in legacy media.

Doesn't really matter if Art of the Deal was written with the help of a ghostwriter. Most celebrity books are written in such a manner.

I hate left wing fascism, i.e. Big Government liberals who enjoy ordering "little people" around and regulating all aspects of daily life. This revealed itself during COVID and Americans took notice.

As far as Greenlanders being "traumatized" by Trump's moves to acquire the Country, let's see how this plays out. You could be correct, if most Greenlanders don't want it to happen it won't happen. I don't think the US wants to be an occupying power over a hostile population. A quick Google search reveals that 99%+ of Greenland is white. However, I note there are 373 people living there from the Philippines and 208 from Thailand.
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89% of Greenland’s population is Greenlandic Inuit. In other words, not white.
 
It appears that 5 of the 8 laggards are Slovenia, Croatia, Luxemburg, Portugal and Belgium. Between them they have a combined GDP of 1.15 trillion, or about what the US spends on defense alone. But hey, let's risk breaking up the greatest defensive alliance on the planet for the sake of what amounts to a rounding error on our defense budget...
 
Germany, France and the UK combine for over half of Europe's NATO members' total GDP and all of them are spending over 2% on defense. I'm sure that more than makes up for Slovenia's and Luxemburg's shortfall...
 
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