Political Pissing Match Catch-All | Response to NOLA Attack & Vegas Cybertruck explosion

[lawtig02]

I am saying they have a twisted view on the religion and use it for political motivations. Many of them aren't even religious themselves. They put on a show. Just compare to the leaders of these groups to the people that commit the acts. Most of them that commit the acts are uneducated men with a history of trauma. You don't find many successful men in those groups. They are brainwashed to believe that it is part of their religion, so it gives them a belief that they are in the right and makes it easier to do what they do. However, those people do not represent true Islam and what it stands for. With ISIS, for instance, a large amount of their attacks are on other Muslims.

Rai, I really do respect you and I have enormous sympathy for what you and your family have experienced, especially over the last 16 months. But speaking as a Christian, this "no true Scotsman" thing only undermines your credibility here. I recognize that by identifying as a Christian, I'm linking myself to a group that has done enormous harm in the world over many centuries, including most recently by electing the most immoral man ever to seek the presidency of the United States to his second term in that position. It's my obligation to use my position as a Christian to push back against that horrible historical legacy, not to compartmentalize it. I know American Muslims are in a very different social position than American Christians, but I hope there's at least a comparable recognition among those who see the Prophet as an instrument of peace rather than of violence.

 

[Centerpiece]

Trump is spectacularly unqualified to be prez, and so is the clown car he’s got lined up to be in his admin 2.0

 

[farce©]

It’s also becoming painfully evident that new leadership is needed at the FBI and CIA.

Well, this is the thread for partisan nonsense so you are holding up your end of the bargain.

 

[farce©]

Patel is an ant-terrorist warrior who will prioritize anti-terrorism.

And you double down on the nonsense.

 

[Huh?]

The CIA director has as much involvement for this particular matter as the Secretary of Transportation.

 

[ZenMode]

I am saying they have a twisted view on the religion and use it for political motivations. Many of them aren't even religious themselves. They put on a show. Just compare to the leaders of these groups to the people that commit the acts. Most of them that commit the acts are uneducated men with a history of trauma. You don't find many successful men in those groups. They are brainwashed to believe that it is part of their religion, so it gives them a belief that they are in the right and makes it easier to do what they do. However, those people do not represent true Islam and what it stands for. With ISIS, for instance, a large amount of their attacks are on other Muslims.

It's a twisted view if you are a moderate, liberal Muslim who interprets the doctrine in a specific way, but there is a doctrinal/religious basis for what they are doing. It may not be the way you interpret the doctrine or the way you understand the religion, but that doesn't mean yours is the only correct interpretation/understanding.

 

[ChileG]

Wait, Patel is anti-terrorist? Well, why didn’t anyone tell me.

“If you want to be part of the PFJ, you have to really hate the Romans.”
“But I do.”
“Oh, yeah? How much?”
“A lot.”
“Right you’re in.”

 

[superrific]

Rai, I really do respect you and I have enormous sympathy for what you and your family have experienced, especially over the last 16 months. But speaking as a Christian, this "no true Scotsman" thing only undermines your credibility here. I recognize that by identifying as a Christian, I'm linking myself to a group that has done enormous harm in the world over many centuries, including most recently by electing the most immoral man ever to seek the presidency of the United States to his second term in that position. It's my obligation to use my position as a Christian to push back against that horrible historical legacy, not to compartmentalize it. I know American Muslims are in a very different social position than American Christians, but I hope there's at least a comparable recognition among those who see the Prophet as an instrument of peace rather than of violence.

1. I don't think it undermines Rai's credibility at all.
2. There's a difference between linking yourself with something and having that link constantly shoved down your throat by people who bear you ill will.
3. I do not think that most Christians take the attitude that you do. I think they compartmentalize. I suspect you do as well, perhaps not knowingly. Do you feel that the African countries pursuing such barbaric anti-gay policies in the name of christ fairly represent Christianity?
4. I do not think that there are any Muslims anywhere who lack that comparable recognition. But how else to communicate to people who remain, by choice, wholly ignorant of Islam? I had a Muslim student who spent some time talking to various Christian groups at the law school. He stopped, he told me, because it became the same thing over and over; first question was "why do Muslims hate Jesus," and the answer given, "actually, we revere jesus" was never accepted and there were people willing to fight him over it. Ironic, given that he was a pretty chill guy being accused of a violent religion by people jumping at the chance to fight. But anyway, you can't talk to people, so you have to say, "they do not represent my views or the views of 99.9% of muslims worldwide"

 

[superrific]

Wait, Patel is anti-terrorist? Well, why didn’t anyone tell me.

Of course he is. it's just that he has his own ideas about what counts as terrorism.

 

[nycfan]

Why would you label him as mentally ill when his self-declared associations and corresponding actions are clearly in line with those of Muslim terrorists?

I label him mentally ill who decided to feed his illness with jihadist nonsense (after first planning to murder his whole family).

It seems like both things can be true and likely are true here — the perp was having some sort of catastrophic personal and mental breakdown AND that resulted in him being drawn to radicalizing forces like ISIS. He reportedly declared his allegiance to ISIS on the drive to do the killings (when he also confessed how this murderous plan replaced his prior plan to call a fake celebration with his family so he could kill them all).

 

[superrific]

It seems like both things can be true and likely are true here — the perp was having some sort of catastrophic personal and mental breakdown AND that resulted in him being drawn to radicalizing forces like ISIS. He reportedly declared his allegiance to ISIS on the drive to do the killings (when he also confessed how this murderous plan replaced his prior plan to call a fake celebration with his family so he could kill them all).

As you know, I typically resist the urge to speak about mass murderers as "mentally ill" because in most cases, they don't seem to fit diagnostic criteria, and we risk diluting the significance of mental health when we equate it to "crazy/not crazy."

But if this is true, that he was planning to kill his family but instead pledged himself to ISIS and decided on a terror attack, that starts to sound like mental illness. Sound like isn't the same as is, but we're in the ballpark at least. That is manic behavior.

Now, all that goes away if it's something stupid like he was having trouble getting laid and thought the 72 virgins sounded better than hell for killing his family. And while I wouldn't even give that theory a second thought in most cases, this is 2025. I'm going to assume anything is possible until shown differently.

 

[lawtig02]

1. I don't think it undermines Rai's credibility at all.
2. There's a difference between linking yourself with something and having that link constantly shoved down your throat by people who bear you ill will.
3. I do not think that most Christians take the attitude that you do. I think they compartmentalize. I suspect you do as well, perhaps not knowingly. Do you feel that the African countries pursuing such barbaric anti-gay policies in the name of christ fairly represent Christianity?
4. I do not think that there are any Muslims anywhere who lack that comparable recognition. But how else to communicate to people who remain, by choice, wholly ignorant of Islam? I had a Muslim student who spent some time talking to various Christian groups at the law school. He stopped, he told me, because it became the same thing over and over; first question was "why do Muslims hate Jesus," and the answer given, "actually, we revere jesus" was never accepted and there were people willing to fight him over it. Ironic, given that he was a pretty chill guy being accused of a violent religion by people jumping at the chance to fight. But anyway, you can't talk to people, so you have to say, "they do not represent my views or the views of 99.9% of muslims worldwide"

Come on, super. You would be destroying any Christian posting here who used that same language to disclaim the sociopathic and often violent tendencies of so many conservative Christians. I get that Muslims and Christians are not on comparable footing in the US, in that Christians wield most of the levers of power and Muslims are most often the victims of that power. But let's not lose the trees for the forest here. Religious extremism is an enormous threat to American security and democracy. That's true when it's a Christian engaging in violence, and it's equally true when it's a Muslim. The answer is not to explain away the compartmentalization. It's for the non-violent members of the respective communities to take ownership and do what they can to engage with and counter the influence of the extremists.

 

[OGtruthhurts]

FBI/CIA should be preventing these terrorists attacks before they occur. Focus has been elsewhere. Patel is an ant-terrorist warrior who will prioritize anti-terrorism.

Now thats funny stuff right there

 

[Geisterfahrer]

FBI/CIA should be preventing these terrorists attacks before they occur. Focus has been elsewhere. Patel is an ant-terrorist warrior who will prioritize anti-terrorism.

Patel is a partisan jackass who will direct fire at trumps enemies.

 

[ZenMode]

I label him mentally ill who decided to feed his illness with jihadist nonsense (after first planning to murder his whole family).

It seems like both things can be true and likely are true here — the perp was having some sort of catastrophic personal and mental breakdown AND that resulted in him being drawn to radicalizing forces like ISIS. He reportedly declared his allegiance to ISIS on the drive to do the killings (when he also confessed how this murderous plan replaced his prior plan to call a fake celebration with his family so he could kill them all).

I think there's a gray area between dangerous religious fundamentalism and being mentally ill... probably some overlap, also. However, there are people who are successful, educated Muslims AND successful, educated non-Muslims who become radicalized by the Jihadist teaching of the religious doctrines of Islam. Declaring them all to be mentally ill would be a mistake and is allows for the ignoring of the real issue.

 

[OGtruthhurts]

How is believing in holy ghosts and holy spirits not a mental illness? Its child abuse to submit children to any of it. Its mental illness to not be able to recondition an adult brain out of the absurdities in all organized religions that teach an exclusive afterlife reward while other believers are doomed to a torturous eternal hell.

 

[superrific]

Religious extremism is an enormous threat to American security and democracy. That's true when it's a Christian engaging in violence, and it's equally true when it's a Muslim. The answer is not to explain away the compartmentalization. It's for the non-violent members of the respective communities to take ownership and do what they can to engage with and counter the influence of the extremists.

I guess I don't interpret Rai's posts the same way you do. I don't think he would disagree with any of that.

Also, I tend to think of the MAGA crowd as fake Christians. Which isn't all that different, I think, from what Rai is saying. It shouldn't be an indictment of a religion when violent people twist various words used in the religion to justify their pre-existing murderous desires.

Of course, it's different when the violence seems to be endemic to the religion itself. For instance, the crusades. and in this respect, ISIS is a tough one. I don't feel qualified to assess it. On the one hand, the idea of a caliphate is deeply ingrained in Islamic theology. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any basis to think that the caliphate has to be barbaric and medieval. From my current vantage point, as someone who knows a little about Islam but not terribly much, I'm willing to accept that ISIS might be more like the crusades than like Hamas or Hezbollah (which are violent political groups masquerading as religious).

But if this guy was ready to kill his family and then changed his mind, pledged himself to ISIS and did his thing in NO, then it wasn't ISIS or Islam that made him violent.

 

[superrific]

How is believing in holy ghosts and holy spirits not a mental illness? Its child abuse to submit children to any of it. Its mental illness to not be able to recondition an adult brain out of the absurdities in all organized religions that teach an exclusive afterlife reward while other believers are doomed to a torturous eternal hell.

99%+ of human cultures in history have been highly religious. If you think that's mental illness, then the entire race is mentally ill.

 

[RaiGuy]

I guess I don't interpret Rai's posts the same way you do. I don't think he would disagree with any of that.

Also, I tend to think of the MAGA crowd as fake Christians. Which isn't all that different, I think, from what Rai is saying. It shouldn't be an indictment of a religion when violent people twist various words used in the religion to justify their pre-existing murderous desires.

Of course, it's different when the violence seems to be endemic to the religion itself. For instance, the crusades. and in this respect, ISIS is a tough one. I don't feel qualified to assess it. On the one hand, the idea of a caliphate is deeply ingrained in Islamic theology. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any basis to think that the caliphate has to be barbaric and medieval. From my current vantage point, as someone who knows a little about Islam but not terribly much, I'm willing to accept that ISIS might be more like the crusades than like Hamas or Hezbollah (which are violent political groups masquerading as religious).

But if this guy was ready to kill his family and then changed his mind, pledged himself to ISIS and did his thing in NO, then it wasn't ISIS or Islam that made him violent.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I am just not great with words lol. There's a reason why I work in a more tech type job than anything that relies on my wording

 

[lawtig02]

I guess I don't interpret Rai's posts the same way you do. I don't think he would disagree with any of that.

Also, I tend to think of the MAGA crowd as fake Christians. Which isn't all that different, I think, from what Rai is saying. It shouldn't be an indictment of a religion when violent people twist various words used in the religion to justify their pre-existing murderous desires.

Of course, it's different when the violence seems to be endemic to the religion itself. For instance, the crusades. and in this respect, ISIS is a tough one. I don't feel qualified to assess it. On the one hand, the idea of a caliphate is deeply ingrained in Islamic theology. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any basis to think that the caliphate has to be barbaric and medieval. From my current vantage point, as someone who knows a little about Islam but not terribly much, I'm willing to accept that ISIS might be more like the crusades than like Hamas or Hezbollah (which are violent political groups masquerading as religious).

But if this guy was ready to kill his family and then changed his mind, pledged himself to ISIS and did his thing in NO, then it wasn't ISIS or Islam that made him violent.

Fair enough. If I misunderstood Rai's position, then I apologize to him. I'm just particularly sensitive, having grown up in a community of Christians that would go to great lengths to excuse bad behavior by Christians, even when done in the name of Christianity, to those who claim the worst examples of their belief systems are somehow definitionally excluded from those belief systems. To me, it's far more honest to say that if you call yourself a Christian (or a Muslim or whatever), you are one. And if you're a Christian who thinks the other self-identified Christian is acting in an anti-Christian manner, the answer is not to say he's not a Christian. It's to call him out. Acknowledge that there are really good Christians AND really bad Christians, and part of the responsibility of the good Christians is to do whatever they possibly can to oppose and counter the influence of the bad Christians. To be more specific, whether we like it or not, part of our responsibility to out groups is to work to remedy the harm caused by the bad actors in our particular group. That may not be fair, but it's an unavoidable part of group identification and belonging in my view.