Political Pissing Match Catch-All | Response to NOLA Attack & Vegas Cybertruck explosion

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lawtig02 said:
Fair enough. If I misunderstood Rai's position, then I apologize to him. I'm just particularly sensitive, having grown up in a community of Christians that would go to great lengths to excuse bad behavior by Christians, even when done in the name of Christianity, to those who claim the worst examples of their belief systems are somehow definitionally excluded from those belief systems. To me, it's far more honest to say that if you call yourself a Christian (or a Muslim or whatever), you are one. And if you're a Christian who thinks the other self-identified Christian is acting in an anti-Christian manner, the answer is not to say he's not a Christian. It's to call him out. Acknowledge that there are really good Christians AND really bad Christians, and part of the responsibility of the good Christians is to do whatever they possibly can to oppose and counter the influence of the bad Christians. To be more specific, whether we like it or not, part of our responsibility to out groups is to work to remedy the harm caused by the bad actors in our particular group. That may not be fair, but it's an unavoidable part of group identification and belonging in my view.
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No need to apologize. I understand what you're saying. My point is that the terrorists' actions are against the foundation of what Islam is. I should phrase it as saying that in my eyes, they are not true Muslims, while they, themselves, claim to be Muslims. It's also not just for Islam. I think many horrible acts in history have done in name of a religion, but those actions do not represent the vast majority of that religion. Just like I don't associate the actions of Israel with Judaism. I think we are saying the same thing, but I did a poor job of explaining what I meant.
 
RaiGuy said:
No need to apologize. I understand what you're saying. My point is that the terrorists' actions are against the foundation of what Islam is. I should phrase it as saying that in my eyes, they are not true Muslims, while they, themselves, claim to be Muslims. It's also not just for Islam. I think many horrible acts in history have done in name of a religion, but those actions do not represent the vast majority of that religion. Just like I don't associate the actions of Israel with Judaism. I think we are saying the same thing, but I did a poor job of explaining what I meant.
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All good. I understand, and whether you think I need to or not, I do apologize for jumping on your initial post.
 
RaiGuy said:
No need to apologize. I understand what you're saying. My point is that the terrorists' actions are against the foundation of what Islam is. I should phrase it as saying that in my eyes, they are not true Muslims, while they, themselves, claim to be Muslims. It's also not just for Islam. I think many horrible acts in history have done in name of a religion, but those actions do not represent the vast majority of that religion. Just like I don't associate the actions of Israel with Judaism. I think we are saying the same thing, but I did a poor job of explaining what I meant.
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I disagree with this. The actions of terrorists are based on a plausible interpretations of the religious doctrines of Islam and teachings of Mohammed. It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
 
ZenMode said:
I disagree with this. The actions of terrorists are based on a plausible interpretations of the religious doctrines of Islam and teachings of Mohammed. It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
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That’s because they’re afraid they’ll go to hell if they kill themselves in the act of murdering a couple dozen people at an abortion clinic or gay nightclub.
 
ZenMode said:
I disagree with this. The actions of terrorists are based on a plausible interpretations of the religious doctrines of Islam and teachings of Mohammed. It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
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Yeah and all it took was the Thirty Years War, killing half of Germany and large segments of other parts of Europe to even start the separation of church and state. That sort of religious fanaticism still hasn't ended, just been beaten down. Folks on the right are fighting hard to bring it back.

Granted, the tactics are different. But that's because the Christians have mostly been the ones with the big battalion. You don't need suicide tactics if you're on top shitting down.
 
ZenMode said:
I disagree with this. The actions of terrorists are based on a plausible interpretations of the religious doctrines of Islam and teachings of Mohammed. It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
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How can you disagree with Raiguy's understanding of what is a Muslim? It is just his understanding.

It is not as though there is a singular definition of Islam (or any religion for that matter). Most Christians don't think Mormons are Christians, and most Mormons do. It is not as though there is an official arbiter of these sort of things.

You say fundamentalism is a "plausible" interpretation of Islam. Raiguy says it isn't. Who is the arbiter of that dispute? No one. There is no right or wrong on this. Just different opinions.

It is certainly undisputed that some fundamentalists claim they are following the true teaching of the religion. That doesn't mean they are.
 
ZenMode said:
I disagree with this. The actions of terrorists are based on a plausible interpretations of the religious doctrines of Islam and teachings of Mohammed. It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
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That’s because Christians are inherently selfish, and prefer to escape punishment for their mass murders if possible.
 
Calheel said:
How can you disagree with Raiguy's understanding of what is a Muslim? It is just his understanding.

It is not as though there is a singular definition of Islam (or any religion for that matter). Most Christians don't think Mormons are Christians, and most Mormons do. It is not as though there is an official arbiter of these sort of things.

You say fundamentalism is a "plausible" interpretation of Islam. Raiguy says it isn't. Who is the arbiter of that dispute? No one. There is no right or wrong on this. Just different opinions.

It is certainly undisputed that some fundamentalists claim they are following the true teaching of the religion. That doesn't mean they are.
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I'm disagreeing with this:

"My point is that the terrorists' actions are against the foundation of what Islam is."

At least a portion, if not most, of the foundations of Islam are based on the teachings of Mohammed and the belief that the most recent Islamic teachings (Mohammed's) supersede prior teachings. Mohammed was not a peaceful guy.
 
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ZenMode said:
It's not a coincidence that you don't see Christian suicide bombers, believers anxious to martyr themselves and killing cartoonists.
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But you do see Christian mass murderers. By far the most terrorism on US soil has been committed by Christians and it's not even close. In the West Bank, most terrorism is committed by Jews and it isn't close.
 
superrific said:
But you do see Christian mass murderers. By far the most terrorism on US soil has been committed by Christians and it's not even close. In the West Bank, most terrorism is committed by Jews and it isn't close.
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And they frequently go in with suicide by cop intentions.
 
WaynetheDrain said:
That’s because Christians are inherently selfish, and prefer to escape punishment for their mass murders if possible.
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Nope. It's because Muslim terrorists LEGITIMATELY believe that they are ensuring an eternity of heavenly bliss, for themselves and family, because of their actions.
 
ZenMode said:
Nope. It's because Muslim terrorists LEGITIMATELY believe that they are ensuring an eternity of heavenly bliss, for themselves and family, because of their actions.
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So what you’re saying is, despite the fact that Christians kill more people yearly in our country than Muslims, only Muslims have a strong enough belief in their god to sacrifice their lives for the cause?

Seems like the Christians need to up their game.
 
This country is going to wake up one day astonished by what we have done to ourselves. People would never hire someone to manage their private company and personal assets in the same way they are willing to elect, and continue to support, politicians to manage their country....no matter how lousy they prove themselves to be.

I guess the country can go 36 trillion (and counting) in debt to make up for the incompetence. People on the other hand would have to declare bankruptcy as a result of such leadership.

And that doesn't even factor in what has been allowed, and actually encouraged, to happen at the borders considering the risks it poses to the country. I'm sure there are a lot more America and American haters among us. Considering the "come one, come all" policy of the current administration coupled with the past, it's pretty much a guarantee.

And they won't waste one second giving a damn about who is a Republican and who is a Democrat.
 
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