Right to Life

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You can never convince me that the state has standing in this issue. It should be the mother and the doctors. If the state or the father has a problem, let them take full responsibility. It's not completely possible now but I expect that in 25 years ,artificial wombs will.
 
There's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse" And the Zen master says, "we'll see." Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible." And the Zen master says, "We'll see." Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful." ...
 
finesse said:
You can never convince me that the state has standing in this issue. It should be the mother and the doctors. If the state or the father has a problem, let them take full responsibility. It's not completely possible now but I expect that in 25 years ,artificial wombs will.
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Hold on there. Artificial wombs? Christian zealots will NEVER go for that. It's against god's will. Plus, women were made to suffer through childbirth. Wasn't that one of the downsides of Eve snarfing down that apple?
 
UNCMSinLS said:
Hold on there. Artificial wombs? Christian zealots will NEVER go for that. It's against god's will. Plus, women were made to suffer through childbirth. Wasn't that one of the downsides of Eve snarfing down that apple?
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But think of the state who wants to protect the fetus or the father whose rights can't be ignored. That can be solved now. The fathers can take the womb and baby home. The mother can evict dangerous boarders that threaten their lives. Surgery that can't be done on the womb can now be done and it might save both. We'll have to work out how to get health and life insurance and figure out how to backdate it to time of conception and a way to assess how and when things go wrong which only 50% of the time or so.

You know, I never knew Christians believed God lied to Moses. He kept telling him in Leviticus not to count firstborn males as members of the tribe until they were a month old. They'd been people 10 moths by then, apparently. Not only that, Jewish tradition made the same mistake.
 
finesse said:
You can never convince me that the state has standing in this issue. It should be the mother and the doctors. If the state or the father has a problem, let them take full responsibility. It's not completely possible now but I expect that in 25 years ,artificial wombs will.
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Agreed why should health care vary by the state you live in

Is it the states right to deny cancer treatments to those over 60. 70, 80...

To save money and reduce taxes on the wealthy
 
HeelingAg said:
There's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse" And the Zen master says, "we'll see." Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible." And the Zen master says, "We'll see." Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful." ...
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- Gust Avrokotos (Philip Seymour Hoffman), Charlie Wilson's War

 
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HeelingAg said:
There's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse" And the Zen master says, "we'll see." Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible." And the Zen master says, "We'll see." Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful." ...
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I like how Marilyn told that similar story - much better - on Northern Exposure about 15 years before Hanks and Hoffman made that movie.
 
UNCMSinLS said:
Hold on there. Artificial wombs? Christian zealots will NEVER go for that. It's against god's will. Plus, women were made to suffer through childbirth. Wasn't that one of the downsides of Eve snarfing down that apple?
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Artificial wombs bearing designer children!

Of course, if the GOP continues to de-emphasize public education the USofA could by then be the world leader for the bearing of dumbasses. Seems we have a good start, already.
 
finesse said:
You can never convince me that the state has standing in this issue. It should be the mother and the doctors. If the state or the father has a problem, let them take full responsibility. It's not completely possible now but I expect that in 25 years ,artificial wombs will.
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It all depends on where you believe "life" begins, right? If it's alive, and is human, then it has a Constitutional right to life, does it not?
 
I have 9 females of child bearing age in my family daughters, daughter in law, bunch of neices and neice-in laws

What a shame we have such dipshit Legislators and now Judges
 
ZenMode said:
It all depends on where you believe "life" begins, right? If it's alive, and is human, then it has a Constitutional right to life, does it not?
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As I mentioned earlier, god told Moses and early Jewish tradition and law reflect this is that it begins a month after birth. Further, in the books of law where not only the Ten Commandants with their prohibitions about lying, steal, adultery and stuff and such details such as what foods can be cooked together, what crops can be sowed together, what cloths can be sewed together fail ever to mention a prohibition against abortion.

This is the closest to a mention and if this doesn't sound like performing one, then you explain it. From the book of Numbers.

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife​

11&nbsp;Then the Lord said to Moses, 12&nbsp;“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13&nbsp;so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14&nbsp;and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15&nbsp;then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:11-31 - New International Version" title="See footnote a">a</a>] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16&nbsp;“‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17&nbsp;Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18&nbsp;After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19&nbsp;Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20&nbsp;But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21&nbsp;here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:11-31 - New International Version" title="See footnote b">b</a>] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22&nbsp;May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
 
finesse said:
As I mentioned earlier, god told Moses and early Jewish tradition and law reflect this is that it begins a month after birth. Further, in the books of law where not only the Ten Commandants with their prohibitions about lying, steal, adultery and stuff and such details such as what foods can be cooked together, what crops can be sowed together, what cloths can be sewed together fail ever to mention a prohibition against abortion.

This is the closest to a mention and if this doesn't sound like performing one, then you explain it. From the book of Numbers.

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife​

11&nbsp;Then the Lord said to Moses, 12&nbsp;“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13&nbsp;so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14&nbsp;and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15&nbsp;then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:11-31 - New International Version" title="See footnote a">a</a>] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16&nbsp;“‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17&nbsp;Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18&nbsp;After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19&nbsp;Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20&nbsp;But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21&nbsp;here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:11-31 - New International Version" title="See footnote b">b</a>] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22&nbsp;May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
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I recognize the importance of your religious views. Other religious people find support for their "conception" position. I, an atheist, look at it differently. I look at it like this.... If a doctor, surgeon, EMS, etc wants to see if you're alive, what do they check for? A heartbeat, right? If you're a human and have a heartbeat, you are considered to be alive. If you're a human and alive, your rights should be constitutionally protected, right?
 
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ZenMode said:
I recognize the importance of your religious views. Other religious people find support for their "conception" position. I, an atheist, look at it differently. I look at it like this.... If a doctor, surgeon, EMS, etc wants to see if you're alive, what do they check for? A heartbeat, right? If you're a human and have a heartbeat, you are considered to be alive. If you're a human and alive, your rights should be constitutionaly protected, right?
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mpaer said:
I have 9 females of child bearing age in my family daughters, daughter in law, bunch of neices and neice-in laws

What a shame we have such dipshit Legislators and now Judges
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And with this POSOTUS back that quick-shit pit is only going to get deeper.
 
I don't have any religious views. I'm an indifferent agnostic. You're just a different kind of fool. The universe is entirely too old and too big for any kind of certainty on our part about anything. Whether there is or isn't a god is irrelevant.

As to when a fetus may become human, I personally don't think it's until they can live outside the womb without artificial machines support heart, lung and kidney function. But then, I don't believe in a soul. Wouldn't matter if I did. If there is an eternal soul, I can't possibly see whether 3 minutes or 300 years on earth makes a difference in billions of years of existence. Might be why Jesus said that "Judge not" thing. We have absolutely no perspective if that's the case.
 
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