Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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Callatoroy said:
Why is that your

Under no circumstance was russia going to withdraw back to its original borders. That isn't my opinion, that's a very common and accepted opinion. The same applies to nato membership for ukraine. Just not going to happen if russia is going to negotiate a peace. The US has no leverage other than continuing to throw money at ukraine to extend until ukraine loses the war of attrition. russia has all the leverage because they can continue to ship oil to fund the war. So, you can keep sending ukraine 150 billion a year for the next 5 years until ukraine runs out of dudes to fight, or try to negotiate a peace deal that secures long-term security for ukraine and creates far less instability in the world.
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Russia is getting pennies on the dollar for their crappy high sulfer oil to Chyna and India. The Ruble is tanking. Russia is on the ropes and should have been defeated in 2022 if Biden had given Zelenskyy the air power he needed before the Orcs set up their minefields.
 
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lol The Ruble is in horrible shape but making a slight comeback since Jan 20. What are the odds?

I blame Biden in part for not making sure the Orange Menace was in prison and Putin was defeated. Putin's got untrained NK kids on the front lines.

This will not end well.
 
superrific said:
I don't think this is right. Trump doesn't actually want a showdown with Beijing. Nothing he's done suggests that he's a China hawk. For one thing, his tariffs on China are oddly lower than what he wants to impose on the rest of the world.

What Trump wants is territorial conquest, and is happy to let China take Taiwan if China lets Trump take Greenland and the Panama Canal.

And while I agree that Trump wants Europe to take responsibility for checking Putin, he also wants Europe to lose that battle.
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Trump himself may not be a China hawk to the letter, but his administration sure has a lot of them.
 
Paine said:
Trump himself may not be a China hawk to the letter, but his administration sure has a lot of them.
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Who? Musk? Only Elon and Trump seem to matter. They are calling all the shots.

It's hard to say that they are China hawks when none of them have said a word about Trump nullifying the tik tok ban.
 
I fully understand why people believe that Trump is "selling out Ukraine" and giving in to Putin with his recent statements and actions. Keep in mind, Trump has multiple goals in these negotiations:

1. Settle the war under the realistic terms by allowing Putin to retain the captured territory in exchange for security guarantees for Ukraine;
2. Improve/normalize relations with Russia. China is the real threat and we must sever or loosen the Russia - China alliance;
3. Force Europe into paying a greater share of the defense/security of Ukraine or rebuilding of the country;
4. Secure repayment of the loans we've made to Ukraine via mineral rights or direct payments. Doesn't want US to be a "sucker."

So, he's making these very public statements about Ukraine in order to back Zelensky down a bit and make him be more realistic about the terms of a settlement.

Trump's making nice with Putin in public to soften him up and throw off China. Trump wants Russia back in the fold and not squarely in China's corner. Putin likes flattery (like Trump) as well as respect. Trump's negotiators - Rubio/Waltz/Ratcliffe/Witcoff - are strongly pro Ukrainian negotiators who will be a lot tougher on Russia than Trump's public comments. Russia's negotiators will be in for a big surprise once they get to the table for actual negotiations. Putin's team is being sandbagged.

Trump doesn't care about angering the Europeans - he enjoys it. Plus, Trump wants to scare them into pledging even more for Ukraine's defense or security pledges for Ukrainian border security.

Granted, it's unconventional and is causing the diplomatic class of the US and Europe to blow a gasket, but that's how Trump rolls. Classic Trump Weave.
 
Ramrouser said:
I fully understand why people believe that Trump is "selling out Ukraine" and giving in to Putin with his recent statements and actions. Keep in mind, Trump has multiple goals in these negotiations:

1. Settle the war under the realistic terms by allowing Putin to retain the captured territory in exchange for security guarantees for Ukraine;
2. Improve/normalize relations with Russia. China is the real threat and we must sever or loosen the Russia - China alliance;
3. Force Europe into paying a greater share of the defense/security of Ukraine or rebuilding of the country;
4. Secure repayment of the loans we've made to Ukraine via mineral rights or direct payments. Doesn't want US to be a "sucker."

So, he's making these very public statements about Ukraine in order to back Zelensky down a bit and make him be more realistic about the terms of a settlement.

Trump's making nice with Putin in public to soften him up and throw off China. Trump wants Russia back in the fold and not squarely in China's corner. Putin likes flattery (like Trump) as well as respect. Trump's negotiators - Rubio/Waltz/Ratcliffe/Witcoff - are strongly pro Ukrainian negotiators who will be a lot tougher on Russia than Trump's public comments. Russia's negotiators will be in for a big surprise once they get to the table for actual negotiations. Putin's team is being sandbagged.

Trump doesn't care about angering the Europeans - he enjoys it. Plus, Trump wants to scare them into pledging even more for Ukraine's defense or security pledges for Ukrainian border security.

Granted, it's unconventional and is causing the diplomatic class of the US and Europe to blow a gasket, but that's how Trump rolls. Classic Trump Weave.
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I’ve no idea why letting Russia keep territory where it murdered tens of thousands of innocent people and occupies in violation of international law should be a goal of POTUS.
There is no security guarantee, NONE, without US troops in Ukraine or NATO membership. Trump and his henchmen have publicly said neither will happen. Throw in the possibility of forced “elections” and theft of natural resources and Ukraine’s best bet could be scavenging nuclear power facilities for material to build dirty bombs and attack Russian population centers or offer to trade mineral rights (and any remaining US munitions) to China in exchange for protection.
 
Ramrouser said:
I fully understand why people believe that Trump is "selling out Ukraine" and giving in to Putin with his recent statements and actions. Keep in mind, Trump has multiple goals in these negotiations:

1. Settle the war under the realistic terms by allowing Putin to retain the captured territory in exchange for security guarantees for Ukraine;
2. Improve/normalize relations with Russia. China is the real threat and we must sever or loosen the Russia - China alliance;
3. Force Europe into paying a greater share of the defense/security of Ukraine or rebuilding of the country;
4. Secure repayment of the loans we've made to Ukraine via mineral rights or direct payments. Doesn't want US to be a "sucker."

So, he's making these very public statements about Ukraine in order to back Zelensky down a bit and make him be more realistic about the terms of a settlement.

Trump's making nice with Putin in public to soften him up and throw off China. Trump wants Russia back in the fold and not squarely in China's corner. Putin likes flattery (like Trump) as well as respect. Trump's negotiators - Rubio/Waltz/Ratcliffe/Witcoff - are strongly pro Ukrainian negotiators who will be a lot tougher on Russia than Trump's public comments. Russia's negotiators will be in for a big surprise once they get to the table for actual negotiations. Putin's team is being sandbagged.

Trump doesn't care about angering the Europeans - he enjoys it. Plus, Trump wants to scare them into pledging even more for Ukraine's defense or security pledges for Ukrainian border security.

Granted, it's unconventional and is causing the diplomatic class of the US and Europe to blow a gasket, but that's how Trump rolls. Classic Trump Weave.
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This is such bullshit.

1. You say Ukraine must be realistic about giving up its territory in exchange for security guarantees, but what does that guarantee look like? Remember we’re being realistic. The only real guarantee is NATO membership, which Putin will never agree to and Trump is running away from NATO in any case. Tell me what a realistic security guarantee looks like for Ukraine that Putin will agree to.
2. Under what scenario does it make sense to normalize relations with a country that has murdered hundreds of thousands of people and has shown they will not abide by any agreement? Russia is a terrorist nation same as NK and Iran. If you give them Ukrainian territory and remove sanctions they are just going to build back up and try again once they do. They are open about their desire to reconstitute the Soviet Union. This is appeasement strategy.
3. Europe has already contributed more dollars than we have, which is the right thing for them to do, but to hear MAGA talk about it you would think we’ve paid the lion share of support. Roughly half of our aid has been spent in the US as well. The EU is working on another huge aid package too. So stop acting like the US is the only one contributing here. Ukraine is giving in both blood and treasure.
4. I’m on record saying getting some collateral to support our aid is a good idea and Zelenskyy is open to it, but that deal Trump put in front of them was a joke. Remember we’re being realistic.

We definitely need to stand up to China as well, but that doesn’t require abandoning Europe. In fact it’s much easier with our alliances intact. If China sees we are willing to cut and run from Europe, how do you think they’ll interpret that as it relates to Taiwan? Use your head for once. We have an opportunity to shut down Russia with a willing force ready to stand up to them for pennies on the dollar compared to our defense budget and you want to cower from that. Reagan would be appalled.
 
Ramrouser said:
I fully understand why people believe that Trump is "selling out Ukraine" and giving in to Putin with his recent statements and actions. Keep in mind, Trump has multiple goals in these negotiations:

1. Settle the war under the realistic terms by allowing Putin to retain the captured territory in exchange for security guarantees for Ukraine;
2. Improve/normalize relations with Russia. China is the real threat and we must sever or loosen the Russia - China alliance;
3. Force Europe into paying a greater share of the defense/security of Ukraine or rebuilding of the country;
4. Secure repayment of the loans we've made to Ukraine via mineral rights or direct payments. Doesn't want US to be a "sucker."

So, he's making these very public statements about Ukraine in order to back Zelensky down a bit and make him be more realistic about the terms of a settlement.

Trump's making nice with Putin in public to soften him up and throw off China. Trump wants Russia back in the fold and not squarely in China's corner. Putin likes flattery (like Trump) as well as respect. Trump's negotiators - Rubio/Waltz/Ratcliffe/Witcoff - are strongly pro Ukrainian negotiators who will be a lot tougher on Russia than Trump's public comments. Russia's negotiators will be in for a big surprise once they get to the table for actual negotiations. Putin's team is being sandbagged.

Trump doesn't care about angering the Europeans - he enjoys it. Plus, Trump wants to scare them into pledging even more for Ukraine's defense or security pledges for Ukrainian border security.

Granted, it's unconventional and is causing the diplomatic class of the US and Europe to blow a gasket, but that's how Trump rolls. Classic Trump Weave.
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Fucking traitor and idiot and fool you are the trifecta!
 
Ramrouser said:
Granted, it's unconventional and is causing the diplomatic class of the US and Europe to blow a gasket
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Has it ever occurred to you that the "diplomatic class of the US" consists of smart, well-meaning individuals who have a lot more knowledge, wisdom, intelligence and experience than you or Trump? Like, if they are blowing a gasket, it's for a reason and maybe it's helpful to take stock of that.

For instance, Trump's tariff plans are causing economists to "blow a gasket." In related news, inflation is increasing, interest rates are up a full point, consumer and business confidence is down, and companies are shuttering factories and warning about massive layoffs. Maybe the economists who are blowing a gasket understand the world better than Trump?

Horrifying experts is not a good thing. You know who else horrified economists with his economic policies? Mao. And Peron. And Ergodan. And virtually all of South America in the 1970s. The list of successful policy makers whose policies made experts blow a gasket -- it's very short. I can't think of one. That's not to say experts are always right. But the consensus of experts is rarely completely 180 degrees wrong.

What would it take for you to admit that experts have valuable knowledge and ignoring them is idiocy? You guys laughed at climate scientists. Guess what? They were right. Liberals laughed at cap-and-trade. Then it worked. The difference is that liberals learned from their mistake, whereas you're still sneering at the climate scientists. Why?
 
Trump and Putin are the two least trustworthy on the planet. And Trump is a strategic idiot. Ukraine, The US and Europe are going to be @$$raped. There's no 3-D Chess going on with Xi.

JFC, southern Trump apologists can't possibly be this stupid...

...well, yes they can. Ergo, the carpetbaggers. Snake oil salesmen.

Trump is after three things:

1. Revenge
2. Grifting
3. Property

Hell, HRC and Kamala spelled it out for everyone! They weren't lying.
 
Damn…….SmilingJack made a hyperbolic comment calling a Trumplican a traitor and Super has to “correct” him and then SJ comes back with “fucking apologist” and “asshole.”

SJ’s comeback was a bit over the top.

Super, you needlessly inserted yourself with your “This is not treasonous or close” post (yes, I did not exactly, perfectly quote you).
 
How does anyone think Ukraine is getting its land back? After three years of trench warfare they can’t move the Russians back. Ukraine is running out of manpower and simply can’t win a war of attrition against Russia. Sure, Ukraine is making Russia pay a high price, but the Russians have never cared about sending troops into meat grinders.

I don’t see any other counties (Including US) willing to send in troops to recapture their lost land. Even if so, do we want Europe at war again?

I do have respect for diplomats and that’s why I’m placing confidence in Trump’s negotiating team.
 
Ramrouser said:
How does anyone think Ukraine is getting its land back? After three years of trench warfare they can’t move the Russians back. Ukraine is running out of manpower and simply can’t win a war of attrition against Russia. Sure, Ukraine is making Russia pay a high price, but the Russians have never cared about sending troops into meat grinders.

I don’t see any other counties (Including US) willing to send in troops to recapture their lost land. Even if so, do we want Europe at war again?

I do have respect for diplomats and that’s why I’m placing confidence in Trump’s negotiating team.
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Anyone ever thinking Russia was going to pull back to original borders and Ukraine joining nato is either not realistic or just wants to use that to further criticize trump. Putin would use battlefield nukes before losing all face or a worldwide sanctions, including China.
 
Zoo_View said:
Damn…….SmilingJack made a hyperbolic comment calling a Trumplican a traitor and Super has to “correct” him and then SJ comes back with “fucking apologist” and “asshole.”

SJ’s comeback was a bit over the top.

Super, you needlessly inserted yourself with your “This is not treasonous or close” post (yes, I did not exactly, perfectly quote you).
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We're all assholes or we wouldn't be here. Glad Zoo is the referee?
 
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