Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

[4thgenheel]

I’ll acknowledge that comment. Will you acknowledge the truth of all the statements that precede it?

it is hilarious that they think it's some sort of gotcha that the mueller investigation determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that russia interfered with the election in trump's favor but that his campaign was likely too stupid to understand exactly what was going on.

i guess they roll with being proud of that when the alternative is collusion, treason, espionage, etc.

 

[4thgenheel]

How do we know he was asked to? You going to believe the White House? And if true, that's rather odd that Trump didn't ask the Indian Prime Minister to wear a suit or at least a tie in the Oval with Trump and Musk.

Now you could say suit and ties are not Indian dress. But I rather doubt in the middle of a war with bombardment, running to air raid shelters and all that, that anyone in Ukraine is much wearing a suit and tie. Wearing a uniform is standard practice in war time. And powerful world symbol to boot. For any world leader involved in a war to go outside his country wearing formal wear would promote the message that their war really isn't serious.

There's a serious double standard going on with your argument.

the arguments about zelenskyy's attire/appearance are so unbelievably bad faith horseshit that we should stop even acknowledging or responding to them, honestly.

 

[ZenMode]

it is hilarious that they think it's some sort of gotcha that the mueller investigation determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that russia interfered with the election in trump's favor but that his campaign was likely too stupid to understand exactly what was going on.

i guess they roll with being proud of that when the alternative is collusion, treason, espionage, etc.

Nope. The campaign knew what was going on and that they'd benefit from what was going on, they just didn't conspire or coordinate with the Russians.

As set forth in detail in this report, the Special Counsel's investigation established that Russia interfere~ in the 2016 presidential election principally through two operations. First, a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J.Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. Second, a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations against entities, employees, and volunteers working on the Clinton Campaign and then released stolen documents. The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Honest question...has anyone on this forum actually read Volume 1 of the Mueller Report?

 

[4thgenheel]

Nope. The campaign knew what was going on and that they'd benefit from what was going on, they just didn't conspire or coordinate with the Russians.

As set forth in detail in this report, the Special Counsel's investigation established that Russia interfere~ in the 2016 presidential election principally through two operations. First, a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J.Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. Second, a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations against entities, employees, and volunteers working on the Clinton Campaign and then released stolen documents. The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Honest question...has anyone on this forum actually read Volume 1 of the Mueller Report?

oh wow, man.

that changes everything!!!!

i'll repeat: there is no "gotcha" for trump supporters regarding this situation.

 

[Calheel]

Z just completely surrendered to Trump via tweet.
Smart move on Ukraine’s part.

That tweet is not nearly enough groveling for Trump. Z saying:

Our meeting in Washington, at the White House on Friday, did not go the way it was supposed to be. It is regrettable that it happened this way. It is time to make things right. We would like future cooperation and communication to be constructive.

That is not an apology. At least not one that should move the needle for Trump. That is essentially Z blaming Trump for the issue without directly saying that.

 

[Batt Boy]

Die Kaiserin proposes an 800 billion euros plan

EU's von der Leyen proposes €800 billion defense plan – DW – 03/04/2025

The European Commission president says increasing defense spending is necessary in "an era of rearmament." A European summit on defense and Ukraine is planned this week amid tense transatlantic relations.

www.dw.com

 

[SnoopRob]

Legitimately becoming impressed at the manner in which quite literally everything calla says on this board is proven to have been the exact opposite happen in reality. That actually takes some skill and talent to be that hilariously wrong that frequently.

Not really, you just have to get all of your information from the rightwing propaganda networks and then regurgitate it on here.

 

[SnoopRob]

Nope. The campaign knew what was going on and that they'd benefit from what was going on, they just didn't conspire or coordinate with the Russians.

As set forth in detail in this report, the Special Counsel's investigation established that Russia interfere~ in the 2016 presidential election principally through two operations. First, a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J.Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. Second, a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations against entities, employees, and volunteers working on the Clinton Campaign and then released stolen documents. The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

Honest question...has anyone on this forum actually read Volume 1 of the Mueller Report?

In short, the Trump Campaign only worked with the Russians at the 30k foot level to illegally meddle in a US presidential election and not at the detail level that leaves individuals guilty of crimes.

Now...imagine thinking that's a defense of Trump and his campaign.

 

[ZenMode]

In short, the Trump Campaign only worked with the Russians at the 30k foot level to illegally meddle in a US presidential election and not at the detail level that leaves individuals guilty of crimes.

Now...imagine thinking that's a defense of Trump and his campaign.

If they worked with them, that would be conspiracy. The campaign knew what Russia was doing and that they'd benefit from it, but there was no 'worked with'.

 

[4thgenheel]

If they worked with them, that would be conspiracy. The campaign knew what Russia was doing and that they'd benefit from it, but there was no 'worked with'.

Mueller Report Shows Depth of Connections Between Trump Campaign and Russians (Published 2019)

Donald J. Trump and 18 of his associates had at least 140 contacts with Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, or their intermediaries, during the 2016 campaign and presidential transition.

www.nytimes.com

actually, no.

"the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges” =/= they didn't work with them.

 

[4thgenheel]

it's so strange, Mr. "i'm not a trumper!" sure does carry a lot of maga water.

 

[SnoopRob]

If they worked with them, that would be conspiracy. The campaign knew what Russia was doing and that they'd benefit from it, but there was no 'worked with'.

It wouldn't be conspiracy unless the Trump Campaign took actions that enabled and/or assisted what the specific actions the Russians did.

The Trump Campaign only met with the Russians, knew at a high-level what they planned to do, and blessed those efforts by the Russians on their behalf.

I work in the non-profit sector and we fairly regularly have folks reach out to us who want to do a donation drive of items we commonly use on our behalf. In those cases, we send them a public list of items that we use the most, also give them a public description of our agency and services that they can use for publicity, let them know where they can drop off any items they collect for us, and we tell them repeatedly how much we appreciate their actions on our behalf. But we don't actually tell them when to have the donation drive, where to find the folks to give to their donation drive, or how to handle the items they receive. I would say that we "work with" those folks on a donation drive for us, even though we do essentially none of the work involved. Similarly, the Trump Campaign "worked with" the Russians on their election interference efforts, even though they didn't do any of the work.

But, again, imagine that you believe what you've stated to be true to be a defense of the Trump Campaign and their partnership with the Russians to interfere in an American election.

 

[SnoopRob]

it's so strange, Mr. "i'm not a trumper!" sure does carry a lot of maga water.

The dissonance is foundational to the bosider's existence.

 

[MOUNTAINH33L]

You know, now that I think about it without my woke libtard MSNBClinton colored glasses on, I'm having a real hard time thinking of what Russia would have to gain by backing Team Trump. It just doesn't add up. I mean, why on earth would Vlad back Trump? I can't see any way that Russia would benefit by backing such a strong rugged principled Alpha man like Donald John Trump. What could they possibly gain from it? It just makes no sense. You know what? Maybe that lifelong RINO Mueller is just full of shit. I'm not buying it, Bob. Take your Russia Hoax Report and go kick rocks! MAGA! MAGAA! WWG1WGA!!! WWEMD?

 

[TangledUpInBlue06]

Z just completely surrendered to Trump via tweet.
Smart move on Ukraine’s part.

Trump can puff out his chest now that the leader of a war-torn country has said kind things about him on twitter.

In the Oval, Trump said to Zelensky "You don't have the cards." And he was right. I don't think anyone has argued otherwise. What people have taken offense to is using that leverage to extort an ally. An ally that is spilling blood to defend its territory against one of our geopolitical foes.

I'd encourage you to look through these photos of the war. Is your reaction "These people owe us more"?

 

[ZenMode]

it's so strange, Mr. "i'm not a trumper!" sure does carry a lot of maga water.

Either facts and evidence matter or they don't. The most powerful investigative body on the planet said they could not establish that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia.

 

[superrific]

Now you could say suit and ties are not Indian dress.

They are. I can tell you with absolute certainty.

 

[superrific]

Either facts and evidence matter or they don't. The most powerful investigative body on the planet said they could not establish that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia.

Do you understand that "did not establish X" is not the same as "established not X?" And, as has been pointed out to you many times, the principal reason it could not be established was obstruction by the president, which for reasons of infinite wisdom, they couldn't charge him with. So they couldn't "establish" anything by design.

You'd think that, after the most powerful investigative body in the world looked into the issue, under the direction of Republican AG Jess Sessions, Republican DAG Rod Rosenstein, Republican FBI director James Comey (who Trump fired early on, lol), and Republican special counsel Robert Mueller, Trump would have been exonerated if he did nothing wrong. And yet that's not what happened.

 

[ChathamHeel]

Either facts and evidence matter or they don't. The most powerful investigative body on the planet said they could not establish that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia.

OK, so no collusion. One would think that Trump would want to prove he is no friend to Russia. Instead, he takes Putin's word over the CIA and FBI.

 

[ZenMode]

Do you understand that "did not establish X" is not the same as "established not X?" And, as has been pointed out to you many times, the principal reason it could not be established was obstruction by the president, which for reasons of infinite wisdom, they couldn't charge him with. So they couldn't "establish" anything by design.

You'd think that, after the most powerful investigative body in the world looked into the issue, under the direction of Republican AG Jess Sessions, Republican DAG Rod Rosenstein, Republican FBI director James Comey (who Trump fired early on, lol), and Republican special counsel Robert Mueller, Trump would have been exonerated if he did nothing wrong. And yet that's not what happened.

Yes, I realize that not being able to establish something is not the same as saying it didn't happen.

At this point in time, and barring any additional information in the future, we should not believe that Trump or his campaign conspired/coordinated with Russia, unless you believe that you know more than the US government.