Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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CFordUNC said:
Lmfao you stupid motherfucker, every single one of us has posted our ideas for solutions many times on this thread. You are either too functionally illiterate to understand them, or you don’t like them. Ain’t our problem, either way. Learn to fucking read, you petulant little slut!
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Then repost yours and answer the questions. I don't remember reading how you would propose to do the things in the questions posed.
 
Callatoroy said:
You answered one of the questions. Appreciated. How about the others?
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All covered by as long as Ukraine wants to. They are on the ground and can judge what they can field and what they can tolerate.

I care less about a solution than I do about being a PITA to Russia. I would prefer that Russia retreats. The only thing I don't want to see is us aiding and abetting Putin. He's a slime and been a sworn enemy since he joined the KGB in 1975.
 
i thought a map might be helpful for us.

not doing more in 2014 was a mistake, calla. you're right about that.

and it is a perfect example of why we shouldn't let russia get away with it again. they aren't going to stop.
 
Callatoroy said:
Then repost yours and answer the questions. I don't remember reading how you would propose to do the things in the questions posed.
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Fuck no, bitch. Quit being a lazy motherfucker and read for yourself. Lmao I ain’t your homework for you. You’ve lost your damn mind, hombre.
 
CFordUNC said:
Just making sure that everyone else sees that calla can’t keep my name out of his mouth even when I’m not part of the conversation! This is the cheapest fucking real estate investment I’ll ever have in my entire life, that space between his ears.

Calla, brother, I’m not going to fuck you. Let it go, hoss!
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you offer nothing, but you do criticize. Do you have an original thought? Tell me how you would handle the ukraine / russia war going forward. If you are afraid to answer or can't think of anything beyond what you are programmed to say then it will be self evident.
 
Callatoroy said:
you offer nothing, but you do criticize. Do you have an original thought? Tell me how you would handle the ukraine / russia war going forward. If you are afraid to answer or can't think of anything beyond what you are programmed to say then it will be self evident.
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You better hop off my nuts long enough to get your lazy ass to reading back through 83 pages if you want an answer.
 
Callatoroy said:
Kellogg is right. It's all to force ukraine into peace discussions. Its showing him what he would face if he doesn't because trump has told him he can go it alone, or with europe

Why now the unfettered commitment to keep sending, or actually increase weapons shipments? Where were the cries when Crimea was invaded and we sent blankets and MREs. Why no opposition to appeasement then?
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First of all, there was plenty of criticism at the time that the US/international response should have been harsher. But at least the US government at the time universally condemned the action by the Russians. it did not pressure the Ukrainian government to "recognize reality" and formally cede Crimea to Russia. Like the Trump admin is doing now. Rather than using his supposed influence with Putin to pressure Putin to end the war, Trump is pressuring Ukraine to sign away its sovereign territory to Russia. Did any previous US administration do that? That is the appeasement. Trump choosing to strongarm Zelenskyy into peace on terms Ukraine does not want, instead of trying to pressure Putin, tells you all you need to know.

Second of all, what happened in Crimea in 2014 was far different than what happened in 2022. It was largely a bloodless, Russian-backed coup. There was little to no immediate fighting. Ukraine did not send its own military back in to try to take Crimea. If they had chosen to do that, I certainly hope we would have supported them politically and with military aid as we did when Russia invaded in 2022.
 
Callatoroy said:
But I want yours specifically.
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Ok, I’ll play.

How do you get russia out?

(1) You keep the pressure on them with new weapons and technologies. (2) I don’t know if they’ll ever be forced out of a place like Crimea, but I 100% guarantee they won’t be if Trump ratifies Russia’s control of those areas.

Who is going to use the weapons we send? Ukraine is about out of soldiers. Russia has more than ukraine

Ukraine can figure that out. Russia is using freaking North Koreans. After emptying their prisons. It’s not like Russia has piles of storm troopers to keep throwing in the breach.

Why would sending them more weapons now all of a sudden work?

It’s been working all along. The question is why would it not work now?

How long would you keep sending weapons to ukraine? 1 yr? 2 yrs. 5 yrs. 20 yrs?

Until Ukraine wants to quit.

Now a question for you —

Why in the hell would Putin not keep acquiring territory if Trump ratifies what he’s done to Ukraine?

And don’t give me bullshit about attacking US companies. Putin couldn’t give a rat’s ass about US companies in countries he wants to conquer. And Trump won’t do a thing about it when a bunch of American miners get hit by a Russian missile. Assuming the miners were there in the first place, which they won’t be because the whole scheme is batshit crazy.
 
finesse said:
All covered by as long as Ukraine wants to. They are on the ground and can judge what they can field and what they can tolerate.

I care less about a solution than I do about being a PITA to Russia. I would prefer that Russia retreats. The only thing I don't want to see is us aiding and abetting Putin. He's a slime and been a sworn enemy since he joined the KGB in 1975.
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Nothing more than that. And my comment isn't intended to insult you. Ukraine can't wage war much longer. What then? putin likely to gain more territory.
 
Callatoroy said:
Nothing more than that. And my comment isn't intended to insult you. Ukraine can't wage war much longer. What then? putin likely to gain more territory.
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That's a decision for Ukraine to make.

Just out of curiosity, are you aware of the makeup of the Russian army? They are almost wholly draftees, there is almost no professional noncom presence and damned little institutional memory. There's a reason that they have had such a shitty performance in the field.
 
Callatoroy said:
Nothing more than that. And my comment isn't intended to insult you. Ukraine can't wage war much longer. What then? putin likely to gain more territory.
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I only hear this assertion that Ukraine can't continue from people who back Trump. Why is it that Ukraine doesn't see it that way and nor do their European neighbors?
 
rodoheel said:
It's more like the logic the US used in arming the Mujahideen in Afghanistan than the logic we used in Vietnam. As for WWI, that was the result of what happened when the great powers of the world sought to carve up the world through imperialism and make every corner of it part of their empires. That is what I'm trying to avoid returning to.

If we sign on to/preside over a peace treaty that involves Ukraine recognizing that the territory Russia has taken is now part of Russia, how does that not constitute "recognizing" that Russia now owns that territory? And if we make peace on the posture that Trump is espousing - where the war is Ukraine's fault and not Russia's - how is that going to make China think there's any chance of the US intervening militarily if they want to take Taiwan?

And I guess we just disagree about what "Continuing to fight until the enemy is completely defeated" means. I'm not suggesting we have to put Russia to the sword and capture Moscow to force an unconditional surrender. Just back Ukraine up when it says there can be no peace until Russia leaves Ukrainian soil. Make clear that it is Russia, and only Russia, who is prolonging this war by refusing to leave. Again, sometimes you have to be willing to maintain your resolve in a smaller war to avoid a bigger one. Putin is counting on Ukraine and the West lacking the resolve to stay in the fight. Trump is giving him exactly what he wants. Anyone who thinks Putin's territorial ambitions will end after a treaty that recognizes Russian sovereignty over a portion of Ukraine is a fool.
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1. I said WWI tactics, not geostrategy. As I understand it, the battle lines are pretty firm right now, like in WWI. Nobody is able to gain much either way, because it's the modern equivalent of trench warfare.

2. You're losing an argument to gt and calla with the refusal to acknowledge that sometimes folding is better than throwing good money after bad. The question you keep evading, because you can't answer it, is "how do you dislodge Russia?" And if you can't answer that question, then the position of "but we must fight until we have expelled them" makes no sense. No matter how many times you jump in the air, even if you jump your highest and strongest, you are not going to fly.

3. Let's be clear about what I'm not saying:

a. admit that Ukraine was the aggressor. That's obviously ridiculous and has no place.
b. broadcast that we're trying to prevent Ukraine from fighting. That's obviously an intent to load the deck in Russia's favor. Don't do that.
c. Internationally recognize the territory as part of Russia. That Russia controls the territory is obvious. But international recognition is usually the touchstone for all territorial concepts. If a bunch of sovereign citizens take over a wildlife refuge and declare themselves an independent country, and the UN takes a vote of member states declaring the refuge to be an independent country, then it is. Then when the US takes back the refuge, we will be seen as occupying a sovereign nation. It doesn't really matter that the claim is ridiculous -- except in the sense that a ridiculous claim like that would never get international backing.

4. What does it mean to not recognize the territory? Well, several things. It means we can continue to isolate Russia. They can live with sanctions forever if that's what they want to do, but we won't lift the sanctions until they leave (and if Trump lifts them, his successor can reimpose them). No membership in G7. Exclusions of Russian athletes from Olympic Games. So on and so forth. Those won't immediately cause Russia to leave, but it severely raises the cost of an invasion.

Is it as good as repelling the invasion? It is not. But the reality is that repelling the invasion is incredibly costly, not guaranteed to work, and we can get a similar bang with many fewer bucks.

We should continue to support Ukraine for as long as Ukraine wants to fight. We surely shouldn't be shutting down intelligence sharing. But insisting that it's war without end unless Russia retreats seems to me like a boxer, having been kneed in the balls and then, when doubled over, gets pummeled with three uppercuts and goes down insisting on fighting to the end to avoid rewarding the low blow. It's great in theory, but in reality it's just going to lead to the boxer getting pummeled some more.

5. I'm not expressing any opinion right now on the specific situation on the ground in Ukraine. I don't know it. I'm just commenting on the general theory and approach.
 
rodoheel said:
Rather than using his supposed influence with Putin to pressure Putin to end the war, Trump is pressuring Ukraine to sign away its sovereign territory to Russia. Did any previous US administration do that? That is the appeasement. Trump choosing to strongarm Zelenskyy into peace on terms Ukraine does not want, instead of trying to pressure Putin, tells you all you need to know.
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Yes, this is true. This is a more focused assessment than your earlier one. Pressuring Ukraine to accede to Russia's demands is appeasement.
 
The territories Russia illegally “annexed” and occupied in 2022 are about 20% of Ukraine’s total land, not even counting Crimea, which Putin annexed (also illegally) in 2014. Allowing Putin to keep this land will only encourage him to come for more once his forces are restocked. Which wouldn't take as long as many of you think... especially if the United States plays a role in lifting sanctions on Russia. And if Trump is allowed to continue, the United States will not be in position to help Ukraine when he returns.

IMHO, there is no concession on land. Russia needs to GTFO of Ukraine. There is no concession on NATO. Russia doesn't decide who joins NATO.

Russia's economy is in TROUBLE. Now is not the time to cow tail to Russia. The United States needs to ramp up their efforts to supply Zelensky and prepare to back the Ukraine for as long as they wish to fight for their country. Europe CLEARY agrees. We should stand with our allies.
 
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