Russia - US | Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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Ramrouser said:
This minerals deal could end up working out well for Ukraine. If it comes to fruition, we're now partners with Ukraine in extracting raw materials and earning billions of dollars on the market. Putin, in the future, must now factor that in as part of his analysis of whether to launch a new invasion against Ukraine. This time he would be endangering Trump's deal and the US's property. That might give him pause.

Trump's holding back on giving Ukraine a security guarantee since the negotiations with Russia are abaout to
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It definitely always works out well for a nation to have their ally turn coat and negotiate with their invader to divvy up the spoils of the invasion.

Let me know how you feel about it when the police split up all your shit with the home invaders in exchange for a promise to protect what you have left from the invaders next time.
 
Patb78 said:
But don’t you see the problem? What we do in regards to Ukraine shouldn’t be based on profit. It should be based on what’s right. And what’s right is helping Ukraine drive the murdering dictator’s armies from Ukraine. Putin started this war, and he should be made to pay a heavy price. Unfortunately, your Dear Leader is only motivated by the $ sign. And all his actions are to be judged accordingly. Wake the fuck up JFC!!!
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This is you assuming maga has a sense of ethics and morality. You assume that bc your brain is wired to see empathy, suffering, and wellbeing of all humans as fundamental to the calculation of collective wellbeing. maga doesn’t have that wiring. maga is an antisocial movement, at its core.

It’s a well worn concept that people with empathy and a belief in collective wellbeing have fierce cognitive resistance to understanding the minds and drive of antisocial people, whether that’s the blatant sociopath, or the blatantly antisocial entity, eg cult. The maga movement is a sociopathic movement, and the people within it aren’t all sociopaths, but are people with some combination of low empathy, insecurity, and poor discernment for bullshit, and therefore can be activated as functional sociopaths by sociopaths. They’ll never break until the consequences of their actions crash upon their heads. maga isn’t new, it just has different toys.

We can’t fathom extorting a cancer patient as we withhold live saving medications, the same as we can’t imagine extorting millions of people who have been invaded and slaughtered by a malignant sociopath. Ram et al. barely pause to consider whether the extortion is moral.
 
Most Republicans (including myself) still have a traditional Republican strong - on - foreign - policy approach. Rubio and Trump's negotiating team fall in this camp. Trump is an outlier in that he looks at diplomacy as making a "good deal." As we all know he's very transactional. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt even though I'm not entirely comfortable with his Soprano like negotiating style with Zelensky. We're going to get to the same place but Trump is just going to go about it differently. He will insist upon a mineral deal to help pay back the American taxpayer. Trump won't immediately announce a Ukrainian security guarantee because he doesn't want to give up too much too soon in the negotiations and he wants to force the EU nations to take the lead on this. Eventually Ukraine will get a US security guarantee with the mineral deal as a bonus. He sees this as winning while traditional diplomacy sees it as crass and unseemly.

But I also give him some credit. We've had more movement on the peace process since Jan 20th than we've had in two years under Biden/Blinken. The Biden Administration would have been content to simply continue pouring additional billions into the World War I meat grinder which Ukraine would eventually lose since it can't win a war of attrition against Russia and no Ukrainian allies (US included) are willing to send in soldiers into the trenches like North Korea is doing for Russia. At least Trump has things moving towards a negotiated settlement. It's just painful watching the sausage being made.
 
If Russia invaded Alaska and we warred with them for three long years and Canada came in and "Negotiated" for Russia to keep Alaska and the United States to sign over mineral rights to Texas for their trouble, would you Trumpers be cool with that?
 
dukeman92 said:
If Russia invaded Alaska and we warred with them for three long years and Canada came in and "Negotiated" for Russia to keep Alaska and the United States to sign over mineral rights to Texas for their trouble, would you Trumpers be cool with that?
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No. Sucks to be Ukraine and have a terrible neighbor like Russia. What's your plan for Ukraine regaining its lost territory? Plus, Canada would never be in a position to negotiate anything for us or anyone else.
 
Why is it so offensive to work with Ukraine on a plan for the US to recover some of the resources it has contributed to their war effort?
 
Purple Nurple said:
Why is it so offensive to work with Ukraine on a plan for the US to recover some of the resources it has contributed to their war effort?
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Pretty much everyone on here has agreed with the plan to work with Ukraine to use their mineral rights to support our war effort. Go look at past posts. What we don't support is a negotiation that requires them to give up a bunch of rights for essentially nothing in return, which is what Trump has proposed so far. If Ukraine can't get a security guarantee, or heck even a promise to continue military aid, then what's the point of them signing an agreement that gives the US rights to their mineral deposits?

Edit to add - The discussion around mineral rights began before Trump took office.
 
Purple Nurple said:
Why is it so offensive to work with Ukraine on a plan for the US to recover some of the resources it has contributed to their war effort?
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Because we were already massively benefited by their crippling the military of one of our principal geopolitical rivals, and the methods by which we are obtaining these resources are extortion.
 
Purple Nurple said:
Why is it so offensive to work with Ukraine on a plan for the US to recover some of the resources it has contributed to their war effort?
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A number of us still feel like we could have probably gotten a similar deal out of gratitude instead of extorting it. Maybe similar results but I suspect it would be easier to keep the deal intact and aid in making deals with other nations.

"A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go do."
 
Ramrouser said:
He will insist upon a mineral deal to help pay back the American taxpayer.
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So. Much. Bullshit. Trump and Putin want Ukrainian minerals because they see it as an opportunity to increase wealth. Period. The end. The U.S. Department of the Interior has designated 50 sperate minerals "strategically important", Ukraine has more than 20 of the 50. It's about wealth and exploitation.

Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about the American Taxpayer. There is plenty of evidence to that fact in his proposed tax "cuts". Americans got plenty out of Biden's arrangement with the Ukraine. We sent them old stockpiles of weapons, which we had to replace anyway. This created opportunities for us to replenish these weapons through the American workforce. It also severely weakened our largest geopolitical rival. Unfortunately the average American is too stupid to grasp any of this as it requires critical thinking.

You are truly bathed in the MAGA blood if you think Trump has accomplished ANYTHING beyond floating his Vladdy Daddy a lifeline when he desperately needed one. It is LAUGHABLE to suggest that the old man who spent the majority of his first cabinet meeting playing on his phone while Musk held serve, possesses the mental competency to employ the level of critical thinking needed for anything in your post to be true.
 
StrangePackage said:
How did you become an attorney with a total inability to conceive of hypothetical scenarios?
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Hypotheticals should, at the very least, be grounded in reality.

Otherwise, I agree that it sucks that Ukraine is going to have to give up some of its territory. I still haven't heard the realistic plan for Ukraine to expel the Russians from their territory in order to secure their 2014 borders.
 
Ramrouser said:
Hypotheticals should, at the very least, be grounded in reality.

Otherwise, I agree that it sucks that Ukraine is going to have to give up some of its territory. I still haven't heard the realistic plan for Ukraine to expel the Russians from their territory in order to secure their 2014 borders.
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How much of Afghanistan is occupied by Russia currently?
 
Ramrouser said:
No. Sucks to be Ukraine and have a terrible neighbor like Russia. What's your plan for Ukraine regaining its lost territory? Plus, Canada would never be in a position to negotiate anything for us or anyone else.
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Sucks to be Ukraine. That's all you got? I'm starting to believe you could work for team Trump.

Here's a thought. Russia could go the fuck home. The United States could act like the world superpower they claim to be and flex some political muscle. But all we're doing is accepting a series of escalating Russian demands without extracting any quid pro quo except the promise of an end to the war on terms that Russia dictates.
 
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