SCOTUS case: Trans rights for minors

[ZenMode]

This is one that I go back and forth on. Where is the sweet spot that protects minors and protects the medical rights of parents and their children? Without a doubt, there are young children who believe they are in the wrong body and will feel the same way for their entire lives.

There's also no doubt that kids can be impacted by social pressure or other external and internal factors and surgery at a young age can have dire consequences. There's also the question of the right of parents to get medical care for their children.

Transgender rights take center stage at the US Supreme Court. Here’s what to know

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/03/politics/trans-rights-supreme-court-case-what-to-know/index.html

 

[finesse]

What is the government's interest in this? This should be solely a medical and family issue.

 

[UNCatTech]

I have my opinions, but @fiis correct, this isn't a government issue.

This isn't child abuse, I just can't see any parent forcing their child in this direction against their will.

And to my knowledge this is a slow methodical process, unlike trumps claim that someone could go to school a boy and come home a girl.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

What is the government's interest in this? This should be solely a medical and family issue.

Which government are you talking about? TN or the US? Both are arguing before the court.

 

[ZenMode]

What is the government's interest in this? This should be solely a medical and family issue.

The government's interest, like it with other laws or policies, is protecting minors either from themselves or others.

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Prelogar is really good at this.

 

[finesse]

Which government are you talking about? TN or the US? Both are arguing before the court.

Any. Why is it their business?

 

[ZenMode]

I have my opinions, but @fiis correct, this isn't a government issue.

This isn't child abuse, I just can't see any parent forcing their child in this direction against their will.

And to my knowledge this is a slow methodical process, unlike trumps claim that someone could go to school a boy and come home a girl.

The problem is that there is so much in play here. Kids can be manipulated by parents, friends, etc. Kids can be confused. Kids can not understand what they're truly feeling and make life-altering changes.

My neighbors have 3 daughters. The mom is, at the least, a frequent abuser of alcohol. The dad is neglectful to everyone in the family. He's in his own world, apparently chasing a dream of being a YouTube rock star of some sort. He's completely checked out.

Over the last 2-3 years, two of the girls have begun living as males. The oldest was first and the middle followed later. They were already a very reclusive family, so it wasn't uncommon to not see a single one of them for months. It is possible that they both suffer from gender dysphoria? Sure. Is it likely? No. It is likely that there are other things going on in their lives that is the cause of this? Yep. Should they be allowed to get double mastectomies as other 16 year olds have or should there be some kind of protection until they are adults and able to make that decision on their own?

Or, is this just a form of medical care, 100% between the girls, family and doctors and if there are regrets, so be it?

 

[BlooVooDoo]

Any. Why is it their business?

Well, Zen laid out the specious argument for the TN legislature passing the law. The Biden admin is arguing against it under the equal protection clause.

 

[finesse]

Or, is this just a form of medical care, 100% between the girls, family and doctors and if there are regrets, so be it?

Exactly right.

 

[GoHeelsweeeehoooo]

I don't have an issue with minors taking hormone blockers with consultation with their parents and a doctor - I think for things like surgery that should be delayed until adulthood

 

[finesse]

I don't have an issue with minors taking hormone blockers with consultation with their parents and a doctor - I think for things like surgery that should be delayed until adulthood

I have absolutely no knowledge of what's involved but that sure does seem like it would make things a hell of a lot harder to do and make people suffer a lot longer. There is no reason for anyone to push the idea that the doctors and parents are not doing everything they can for the benefit of the child. That's some arrogant and inappropriate bullshit, if you ask me. If it turns out that they aren't, there are laws to punish them when and if they do something wrong. The state has zero vested interest in this. Talk about some nanny state junk, this is a bad as it gets.

 

[UNCatTech]

The problem is that there is so much in play here. Kids can be manipulated by parents, friends, etc. Kids can be confused. Kids can not understand what they're truly feeling and make life-altering changes.

My neighbors have 3 daughters. The mom is, at the least, a frequent abuser of alcohol. The dad is neglectful to everyone in the family. He's in his own world, apparently chasing a dream of being a YouTube rock star of some sort. He's completely checked out.

Over the last 2-3 years, two of the girls have begun living as males. The oldest was first and the middle followed later. They were already a very reclusive family, so it wasn't uncommon to not see a single one of them for months. It is possible that they both suffer from gender dysphoria? Sure. Is it likely? No. It is likely that there are other things going on in their lives that is the cause of this? Yep. Should they be allowed to get double mastectomies as other 16 year olds have or should there be some kind of protection until they are adults and able to make that decision on their own?

Or, is this just a form of medical care, 100% between the girls, family and doctors and if there are regrets, so be it?

I agree with the first paragraph. This is why it is a slow process. The process is meant to ensure this isn't a phase or misunderstanding as this is serious and produces life changing results.

You're example family appeared to have far greater issues. Do you consider this the norm for kids with gender dysphoria?

You admit to having limited interaction with this family how can you make an informed judgement call about the kids?

And how would the government make an informed judgement? They wouldn't, they make a blanket decision based on possible outcomes for 1% at a cost to the 99% that this process would help.

Do you have any statistics on 10 year olds getting double mastectomies?

From my understanding the hormone blockers are most effective before puberty. They don't necessarily need the physical surgeries at that point. It's also my understanding that the are required to live as the opposite gender for a long period of time (i believe over a year) before opting for the surgeries. Either way, this is a decision for doctors, and patients, not people like John Neely Kennedy who struggled to read a fiction book out loud.

 

[UNCatTech]

There is no reason for anyone to push the idea that the doctors and parents are not doing everything they can for the benefit of the child. That's some arrogant and inappropriate bullshit, if you ask me.

Exactly.

We have to remember the Larry Nasser cases are outliers, not the norm.

To many people look at the worst possible outcome and believe that to be the normal outcome.

This is the basis for the antivax movement also.

People need to realize that the evening news is all about outliers.

 

[StrangePackage]

Until the government starts to intervene to stop circumcision under this rationale, I believe it is safe to assume that the rationale for this and other restrictions are just legalized queer bashing.

 

[rodoheel]

The government's interest, like it with other laws or policies, is protecting minors either from themselves or others.

Are there other examples of the government forbidding medical procedures on such grounds where both (1) the doctor believes it's medically advisable and responsible to do the procedure, and (2) there is informed consent from the minor and their parents?

 

[hedge]

Kids can be manipulated by parents

You mean like being made to attend church and such?

 

[ZenMode]

I agree with the first paragraph. This is why it is a slow process. The process is meant to ensure this isn't a phase or misunderstanding as this is serious and produces life changing results.

You're example family appeared to have far greater issues. Do you consider this the norm for kids with gender dysphoria?

You admit to having limited interaction with this family how can you make an informed judgement call about the kids?

And how would the government make an informed judgement? They wouldn't, they make a blanket decision based on possible outcomes for 1% at a cost to the 99% that this process would help.

Do you have any statistics on 10 year olds getting double mastectomies?

From my understanding the hormone blockers are most effective before puberty. They don't necessarily need the physical surgeries at that point. It's also my understanding that the are required to live as the opposite gender for a long period of time (i believe over a year) before opting for the surgeries. Either way, this is a decision for doctors, and patients, not people like John Neely Kennedy who struggled to read a fiction book out loud.

I'm sure there are kids who truly, from the age they are able to speak and understand gender, feel like they are in the wrong body. I'm also confident that some portion of the rapidly increasing transgender population is not in the category of the aforementioned example.

The problem differentiating between the two categories to ensure that life-changing surgeries are only being performed when it's appropriate.

I wouldn't expect the government to look at the situation and decide the course of action. It would be a matter of the government outlawing surgeries until the person is an adult.

I found a Reuters article that shows, between 2019 and 2021, 56 genital surgeries and 776 mastectomies on 13-17 year olds.

 

[superrific]

Prelogar is really good at this.

She is one of the best at oral argument I've ever seen, or at least that I can remember. Possibly the only good thing to have come out of Idaho since Micron.

 

[superrific]

I'm sure there are kids who truly, from the age they are able to speak and understand gender, feel like they are in the wrong body. I'm also confident that some portion of the rapidly increasing transgender population is not in the category of the aforementioned example.

The problem differentiating between the two categories to ensure that life-changing surgeries are only being performed when it's appropriate.

If only there were people specially trained to determine when particular therapies are or are not appropriate.

The transgender population is increasing less rapidly than did the left-handed population when schools started putting in left-handed desks. It's almost as if people don't want to reveal a condition they have when it will lead to mockery and discrimination.

I haven't seen the statistics, but I'm extremely confident that there are a lot more people who publicly identify as gay now than in the 1970s. Funny how that works.