SCOTUS case: Trans rights for minors

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UNCatTech said:
The point wasn't the race, age, or gender,
and you know that, it's the government control of personal medical procedures.

If they are not the individual's primary care provider how is it their responsibility? How are they able to make a medical decision for these people that they do not know?
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There's two ways to see it: government control of personal medical procedures and government protecting those who may not be making serious medical decisions based on the best information.

Like I said, I see both sides. If I had to pick a side, I'd lean toward allowing families and the doctors to make the decision... but it's tough when you're talking about a 14 year old girl have a double mastectomy or transforming his/her genitals.

There's also a possibility that the free market may dictate how this goes via lawsuits against the medical facilities doing the surgeries. It might just become too expensive to do these surgeries on minors.
 
UNCatTech said:
Oh circumcision can be life changing. There are documented cases of these common procedures going wrong.
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Sure. Removing a gallbladder CAN be life changing. In itself, a successful, issue-free circumcision isn't likely to be life changing.
 
ZenMode said:
There's two ways to see it: government control of personal medical procedures and government protecting those who may not be making serious medical decisions based on the best information.

Like I said, I see both sides. If I had to pick a side, I'd lean toward allowing families and the doctors to make the decision... but it's tough when you're talking about a 14 year old girl have a double mastectomy or transforming his/her genitals.

There's also a possibility that the free market may dictate how this goes via lawsuits against the medical facilities doing the surgeries. It might just become too expensive to do these surgeries on minors.
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What would be the standing to sue them?
 
Calheel said:
UK has a temp ban on puberty blockers right now. Kids who have started the treatment are grandfathered in, but they are not allowing new kids to start for the time being.

www.gov.uk

Extension to temporary ban on puberty blockers

The continuation of the ban applies to the sale or supply of these drugs to under 18s not already taking them.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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But is that a good thing? Puberty blockers are 100% reversible. To me, that seems like terrible policy, even if puberty blockers only stop a handful of suicides.

From the Mayo clinic:

Are the changes permanent?​


GnRH analogues don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead..


When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again.
 
Calheel said:
That said, it is equally silly to compare a routine nose job to gender reassignment surgery.
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I disagree. They both require informed consent of parents and the minor patient and a surgeon who is convinced that the procedure is in the best interest of the patient. No ethical surgeon is going to cut on a child with a lower standard of need because it’s “less drastic.”

I knew two girls who had elective surgery in 9th grade. One had a nose job, the other breast reduction. In both cases they had to meet multiple times with a psychiatrist or psychologist before having the procedure (granted I don’t know if that was a requirement of the surgeon/hospital or the parents).
 
ZenMode said:
What are the odds of regretting gallbladder surgery?
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Depends. Anytime it's bad enough that it can't be done laparoscopically, you have a greater risk of surgical infections or dying under anesthesia and a fairly long recovery time.. Even if you can, there's risk. I don't know the other risks but there is no such thing as a completely safe surgery.

I expect there are probably more cases of side effects than there are gender reassignment surgeries in total.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
I disagree. They both require informed consent of parents and the minor patient and a surgeon who is convinced that the procedure is in the best interest of the patient. No ethical surgeon is going to cut on a child with a lower standard of need because it’s “less drastic.”

I knew two girls who had elective surgery in 9th grade. One had a nose job, the other breast reduction. In both cases they had to meet multiple times with a psychiatrist or psychologist before having the procedure (granted I don’t know if that was a requirement of the surgeon/hospital or the parents).
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True. Also, murder and shop lifting are both crimes.

In any event, I am not going to engage on this particular issue because it is a red herring. No one should be discussing surgeries (which just gives fodder to the Zen Modes of the world) when the real import of these laws is puberty blockers and hormones.
 
ZenMode said:
What are the odds of regretting gallbladder surgery?
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I regretted it pretty strongly when I had a bad reaction to the anesthesia for about two weeks. That said, it certainly wasn't elective surgery. I didn't have a choice in the matter as my gall bladder had turned into a giant sack of gall stones and I wasn't going to get sleep until they ripped that bad boy out.
 
ZenMode said:
Kind of beside the point, but you can read about it if you'd like:

nebraskaexaminer.com

Nebraska woman files lawsuit against UNMC for double mastectomy she received at 16 • Nebraska Examiner

A woman who received a double mastectomy at age 16 is suing her former physicians at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
nebraskaexaminer.com nebraskaexaminer.com
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Physicians removed Hein’s breasts in 2018 and placed her on testosterone later that year, the lawsuit states, which violates guidelines put forth by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. On Jan. 10, Hein told her gender care physician she was no longer taking testosterone, was in pain all over, no longer identified as male and was not old enough to have consented to the treatments she received as a minor.

If this is true, it's medical malpractice, not an indictment of the procedure. I saw no mention of her parents. Are they alive and what do they say?
 
finesse said:
Depends. Anytime it's bad enough that it can't be done laparoscopically, you have a greater risk of surgical infections or dying under anesthesia and a fairly long recovery time.. Even if you can, there's risk. I don't know the other risks but there is no such thing as a completely safe surgery.

I expect there are probably more cases of side effects than there are gender reassignment surgeries in total.
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I'm talking about successful, routine surgeries with no complications.
 
roostra said:
But is that a good thing? Puberty blockers are 100% reversible. To me, that seems like terrible policy, even if puberty blockers only stop a handful of suicides.

From the Mayo clinic:

Are the changes permanent?​


GnRH analogues don't cause permanent physical changes. Instead, they pause puberty. That offers a chance to explore gender identity. It also gives youth and their families time to plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues that may lie ahead..


When a person stops taking GnRH analogues, puberty starts again.
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I do not think it is a good thing. Simply pointing it out.
 
Callatoroy said:
Not stating this as fact, but doesn't the MN law allow underage kids to undergo surgery at the exclusion of parental consent?
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That would seem to be a no. "Essentially, the state of Minnesota can only step in where there’s an ongoing custody dispute – not just because a child’s parents disagree with their child concerning gender-affirming care."
 
ZenMode said:
What are the odds of regretting gallbladder surgery?
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ZenMode said:
Sure. Removing a gallbladder CAN be life changing. In itself, a successful, issue-free circumcision isn't likely to be life changing.
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You should read up on the anti-circumcision movement. There are a lot of people out there who do consider their lives to be irrevocably changed to their detriment by their circumcisions. Do you support a government ban?
 
roostra said:
You should read up on the anti-circumcision movement. There are a lot of people out there who do consider their lives to be irrevocably changed to their detriment by their circumcisions. Do you support a government ban?
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A circumcision ban would face a very strong Free Exercise challenge. Trans kids don't have that argument and that is why they are relying on an equal protection argument today.

Perhaps if trans kids created a religion based on gender identity, they could make a valid First Amendment argument.
 
Calheel said:
A circumcision ban would face a very strong Free Exercise challenge. Trans kids don't have that argument and that is why they are relying on an equal protection argument today.

Perhaps if trans kids created a religion based on gender identity, they could make a valid First Amendment argument.
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I'm not sure that is insurmountable (at least in front of a pre-2016 Supreme Court). Female Genital Mutilation/cutting arguably has a religious basis (It just happens to be one of the "bad" religions) and it is illegal in 41 states.

This is all a tangent though, I am not advocating for a ban on circumcision, just pointing out that all of the arguments that support banning gender affirming treatment also support a ban on circumcision. So if one is for a ban on gender affirming treatment but opposed to a ban on circumcision, then maybe that person is being disingenuous with their motives and really the basis for their support is animus towards trans folks.
 
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