"Severance" Thread ; "But I'm her, Mark. I'm her."

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If Drummond strangles Mark, he dies right? Like Mark Scout the outie dies. But Lumon probably doesn't worry about making someone disappear. That's why they have their goons.
 
aGDevil2k said:
Innie Mark is a jackass.
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Disagree. He’s operating on a few sure pieces of information 1. If he walks out that door, he dies. 2. With Cold Harbor finished, the likelihood is all the people he knows die, including the only person he’s ever loved. 3. He’s equipped to fight back.

One thing that’s always bugged me about the show is they leave a lot of stuff just hanging. The one that bothers me most is how innies can essentially function, understand broadly normed concepts, devices, lingo, problem solve basic machinery, etc. yet concurrently have adolescent like emotional intelligence, or have no understanding of the equator. Nevertheless, the show has that quality, and as such, I view Mark S.’ decision at the end consistent with that of a teenager in the thralls of infatuation, justice seeking, uncertainty avoidance, and sex mad.

I think the point was to make both Marks less sympathetic (the camcorder scene was core), to force the audience to grapple with our inherent individualism and survival drive. I suspect season three will offer a contrast through the Gemma storyline, and likely the return of Irv. I think Gemma will be forced into a trolley car decision, with Mark Scout on the line, and she’ll choose the whole over the individual. Gemma has experienced a version of severance torture that goes far beyond anyone else’s - that will factor heavily, IMO, particularly when she gets reintegrated.
 
Yeah the fact they know lots of things after being severed has always bothered me. I get that it's not important so they just brushed over it, but it's weird.

I also get Mark had to make that decision for the story. But I think it's because his issue is less that he will die (the reintegration will keep him alive) but that helly will never be reintegrated. I wonder if they will try to figure out how to make her innie the dominant personality.

Anyhow, his ability to fight back? How is he equipped? I mean now he knows they will wilfully kill him so it's way more dangerous.

But what about the others. What are Dylan and Helly working on??????

Finally do we assume it was Drummond doing the voice of Kier in the stand up bit? Didn't sound like him but obviously the jabs....

Where is Natalie?

And when the hell will milkshake finally have enough???
 
aGDevil2k said:
Anyhow, his ability to fight back? How is he equipped? I mean now he knows they will wilfully kill him so it's way more dangerous.
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He’s already successfully fought back, and that engenders confidence, if not outright delusion of agency. He has become the connective tissue of the innie world, and it’s clear the innie world has a lot of angst to leverage, see Brianne of Tarth.

We have the potential of a lord of the flies situation, concurrent with a Gemma hero’s journey, concurrent with a Mark Scout fighting Mark S (and the inevitable moral dilemmas) as reintegration continues to offer Mark Scout moments of control (amidst 10 other storylines).

They’ve clearly left a ton of meat on the bone (too much, IMO), so predictions are a fool’s game - but I’ll play the fool: my most confident prediction is Mark dies, and it’s a collective decision.
 
Can we see more of Mark Scout though??
If he ever goes back outside, why the hell would he ever return to the building??
 
aGDevil2k said:
Can we see more of Mark Scout though??
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Mark Scout is trapped in Mark S. As the reintegration proceeds, presumably in a step-wise vs linear fashion, Mark Scout will emerge within Lumon and likely with knowledge of the choice Mark S. just made. I presume it's going to be like someone drowning breaking the surface, and desperately attempting to claw back the prospect of life.
 
chawkheel said:
Mark S. you disappoint me.

Will Season 3 be Gemma trying to save Mark?
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So, such a great question, but we have been taught (by Mark S, with some justified anger) that we can never just say "Mark" again. Gemma, from Mark S's perspective would be trying to kill Mark S by "freeing" the Mark S/Mark Scout body (life form, substrate... I don't even...) from inside Lumon. This is why in the video cam argument, as it builds, Mark S gets so angry, but also because he would lose the only love he has ever known, and she likely dies. Getting Mark Scout out of there is an act of "sacrifice" not that much unlike the goat, but not for lunatic religion, but for the goals of Mark Scout and Devon.

This kind of thing is why I think my term incomparable is not hyperbole for this narrative.
 
Milk and Cookies said:
Alternate thread episode title: "Has it verve?"
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Also considered Drummond's insane line, "The beast will be entombed with a cherished woman," but I truly believe the Helly quote is a massive signifier for the season--and the show. Earlier Mark S still believes Helly is Helena (she is not in this hallway scene) and Helly pleads, sadly, almost hopelessly, "I'm not her! I'm not her, Mark!" Polar opposite declarations. I am a mammal nurturing the strange theory that Helly and Helena have some how, some way reintegrated. Perhaps to a degree. It's part of the "equator" bit out of nowhere. Equate... Helena despises her father.

I think season 3 involves joining Mark S in some sort of internal stand-off or coup, with Cobel as some sort of ally. Pure guessing here, perhaps I am hanging out on a thin, dry limb.
 
aGDevil2k said:
I wonder if they will try to figure out how to make [Helly] the dominant personality.
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I agree. They might have given us some foreshadowing along those lines. Jame Eagan came onto the severed floor to marvel at the intangible Kier quality Helly has that Jame has been desperately seeking in his offspring. Does he try to pull off a reverse glasgow block/OT and swap Helena for Helly, allowing Helly to live in the outside world? And imagine how that would complicate a reintegrated Mark trying to restart his life with Gemma.

The crux of this show is definitely a dual-personality Mark being forced to decide between the two women he loves.
 
aGDevil2k said:
1. So all along they were going to kill Gemma cause they were done with their experiment (and then the goat escort). It wasn't a torture room.
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Yes, to be entombed with that poor goat (what great acting by that goat--they must have done dozens of takes to get the little guy to look all the right ways in that scene). Gemma, as not one of the 25 innies, and not Ms Casey (we assume that innie is dead forever) but in Lumon was to be killed. Drummond, to my continuing surprise as the season has emerged, was a kind of high priest of this bizarre cult, which has aspects of many cults but primarily Scientology.
aGDevil2k said:
They simply wanted the ultimate memory test and then discard of her like garbage. They have done this to many people before. IT'S A FUCKING CULT SCIENCE COMPANY. Scientology anyone?
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Yep. If you've seen the best Scientology documentaries, this series is even more scary. I like My Scientology Movie best.
aGDevil2k said:
2. Drummond was fine killing Mark because Mark was useless at that point. Drummond was also clearly a horrible person.
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One of the best human monsters since the guy in No Country for Old Men, and the hair seems a reference there.
aGDevil2k said:
3. Milchick is such a fool. Also Trammell better win a fucking Emmy. HE BETTER.
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This show, in a just world, should take every single possible Emmy Award.
aGDevil2k said:
4. Innie Mark is a jackass. The whole episode was intense (great mood music) as Hell. I hated the end. But it makes season 3 have a foundation. I guess it's about Gemma now - because now, the Innies cannot leave. When they leave, they aren't coming back.
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Right, Mark S. pushing through that door to Gemma would be suicide for him, and possibly kill Helly. Impossible choice and to me makes him human and no jackass.
aGDevil2k said:
5. Where do the stairs go? She has to get out of there FAST
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Lumon, which is rich but a cloistered group of fanatics, may be in chaos at that point. Millchick stopped in his tracks faced with the marching band against him. Does he now flip? I have zero idea, but I was wrong about what his "Grow" statements to himself meant.
aGDevil2k said:
6. Who are the torture people that Helly, Irving and Dylan are working on?
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I thought they were Gemma files that they were not nearly as good at as Mark S was. {{??}}
 
Milk and Cookies said:
I agree. They might have given us some foreshadowing along those lines. Jame Eagan came onto the severed floor to marvel at the intangible Kier quality Helly has that Jame has been desperately seeking in his offspring. Does he try to pull off a reverse glasgow block/OT and swap Helena for Helly, allowing Helly to live in the outside world? And imagine how that would complicate a reintegrated Mark trying to restart his life with Gemma.

The crux of this show is definitely a dual-personality Mark being forced to decide between the two women he loves.
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Amazing ideas there. When Helly moved towards Jame with a pen, as he could see, potentially to stab him, he was pleased. Much earlier he insulted Helena with the words "Fetid moppet" and she had no reaction against him. The most she has done is eating eggs the wrong way.

I thought in her swimming scene at the mansion one shot did look like the drowning scene at the waterfall.
 
an0maly said:
Yes, to be entombed with that poor goat (what great acting by that goat--they must have done dozens of takes to get the little guy to look all the right ways in that scene). Gemma, as not one of the 25 innies, and not Ms Casey (we assume that innie is dead forever) but in Lumon was to be killed. Drummond, to my continuing surprise as the season has emerged, was a kind of high priest of this bizarre cult, which has aspects of many cults but primarily Scientology.

Yep. If you've seen the best Scientology documentaries, this series is even more scary. I like My Scientology Movie best.

One of the best human monsters since the guy in No Country for Old Men, and the hair seems a reference there.

This show, in a just world, should take every single possible Emmy Award.

Right, Mark S. pushing through that door to Gemma would be suicide for him, and possibly kill Helly. Impossible choice and to me makes him human and no jackass.

Lumon, which is rich but a cloistered group of fanatics, may be in chaos at that point. Millchick stopped in his tracks faced with the marching band against him. Does he now flip? I have zero idea, but I was wrong about what his "Grow" statements to himself meant.

I thought they were Gemma files that they were not nearly as good at as Mark S was. {{??}}
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Nah they were working on something else... Mark completed 25 files himself

I still wish they would explain how innies know lots of basic life skills and communication and things but whatever
 
aGDevil2k said:
Nah they were working on something else... Mark completed 25 files himself

I still wish they would explain how innies know lots of basic life skills and communication and things but whatever
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Same way that people with amnesia remember basic life skills, communication, etc. Those are things that always stay with you even when you can’t remember your past.
 
an0maly said:
Amazing ideas there. When Helly moved towards Jame with a pen, as he could see, potentially to stab him, he was pleased. Much earlier he insulted Helena with the words "Fetid moppet" and she had no reaction against him. The most she has done is eating eggs the wrong way.

I thought in her swimming scene at the mansion one shot did look like the drowning scene at the waterfall.
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They’ve used the Helena/Helly face in water motif at least 3 times. Waterfall drowning, swimming at dad’s house and in the animation video they were shown post OT where Helly was bobbing for pineapples.
 
an0maly said:
Yes, to be entombed with that poor goat (what great acting by that goat--they must have done dozens of takes to get the little guy to look all the right ways in that scene). Gemma, as not one of the 25 innies, and not Ms Casey (we assume that innie is dead forever) but in Lumon was to be killed. Drummond, to my continuing surprise as the season has emerged, was a kind of high priest of this bizarre cult, which has aspects of many cults but primarily Scientology.

Yep. If you've seen the best Scientology documentaries, this series is even more scary. I like My Scientology Movie best.

One of the best human monsters since the guy in No Country for Old Men, and the hair seems a reference there.

This show, in a just world, should take every single possible Emmy Award.

Right, Mark S. pushing through that door to Gemma would be suicide for him, and possibly kill Helly. Impossible choice and to me makes him human and no jackass.

Lumon, which is rich but a cloistered group of fanatics, may be in chaos at that point. Millchick stopped in his tracks faced with the marching band against him. Does he now flip? I have zero idea, but I was wrong about what his "Grow" statements to himself meant.

I thought they were Gemma files that they were not nearly as good at as Mark S was. {{??}}
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Drummond even died thanks to a bolt pistol - the same weapon of choice that Chigurh used in No Country for Old Men
 
Ben Stiller was saying that Mark made the decision in a moment not thinking that they don't really know what to do... They have no future at Lumon. So it was impulsive and they will quickly be in a what now situation
 
aGDevil2k said:
Nah they were working on something else... Mark completed 25 files himself

I still wish they would explain how innies know lots of basic life skills and communication and things but whatever
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I'm assuming they wall off the area of the brain that holds more profound, personal memories.
 
chawkheel said:
I'm assuming they wall off the area of the brain that holds more profound, personal memories.
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Digression alert, but I think you'll like it...

This is an area I have had life-long interest in--meaning how the brain works with consciousness and memory, and I have some ideas about what they are getting at with the severance procedure and ideas. The director and writer have worked with a top neuroscientist and surgeon, Vijay Agarwal, who oversees brain surgery on the advancing edge treatments for things like brain tumors. He has said that something like what is in this show is theoretically possible in the future, and an extension of certain specific things that are being done now.

I don't want to get too deep in the weeds in this for now, but for now the basic premise is that we know that there are connections that trace throughout the brain linking memory and emotion, including specific traces. I think I might have mentioned some of this above in the thread. We know that self-directed (actually!) attempts at remembering certain things can cause actually too much electrical stimulation down a neurological pathway, which results in a backfire effect--the very memory specific you want is temporarily not accessible at all. This is the notorious "tip of the tongue" phenomenon when we want to retrieve a name or something and perversely too much thinking about it blocks it, like all the traffic trying to take one freeway exit at once at rush hour.

The show is positing a science fiction conception that all connected pathways relating to memories of work life or non-work life have connections that could be traced and walled off by enforced specific electrical stimulation that the chip provides. The details here are the realm allowed in futuristic science fiction, but it's acceptable even though we don't have the how. In SF it is kind of like this joke:

0DYB90RU06WA4G1D.jpg

So you kind of have to go with the idea that they can detect, via the chip and outside computing, the traces for outside life and also for work life and alternately block each. Now the show demostrates this is not complete and has "leakage." But the premise of two people in one head is to a certain limited degree, known science. Commissorotomy patients who have had brain hemispheres cut apart show signs of two people created out of one (Wikipedia):

After the right and left brain are separated, each hemisphere will have its own separate perception, concepts, and impulses to act. Having two "brains" in one body can create some interesting dilemmas. There was a case in which, when one split-brain patient would dress himself, sometimes he pulled his pants up with one hand (the side of his brain that wanted to get dressed) and down with the other (the side that did not). He was also reported to have grabbed his wife with his left hand and shook her violently, at which point his right hand came to her aid and grabbed the aggressive left hand (a phenomenon sometimes occurring, known as alien hand syndrome).

Alien hand syndrome is comically depicted in Dr. Strangelove, with his embarrassing "Nazi arm" in the movie of that name. The degree to which brain commissurotomy truly creates two people in one brain is very controversial, but it certainly does it in some ways as shown above. Severance is extending all of this in massive, astoundingly brilliant ways for science fiction.
 
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