"Severance" Thread ; "But I'm her, Mark. I'm her."

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Healing said:
I had nearly the same thought while reading the post, and I wasn’t the target, ie “what’s your deal?”

Some folks like to get geeky with Absalom! Absalom!; some folks would rather read Candide. No yuck on either yum is necessary, and saying “that one didn’t grab me” isn’t cause for personal criticism.
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Just to clarify something, I have been discussing aesthetic values in art of all kinds (and discussing other stuff) since very roughly 1977, and that on message boards since about 1993 or so, to now, and have been told I "may be missing something" thousands of times. Very often to my benefit, correctly so told. This kind of thing is not a personal criticism, it opens thought doors, and is part of any worthwhile discussion. Further, the word "may" indicates a speculation. One that can be countered with "may not" aesthetic arguments as well. Further, such speculation does not matter. Personal criticism is of the form, your mother dresses you funny, not you may have missed something in a work of art, or may be wanting something else in a work of art. That is an automatic part of a useful and non-boring discussion, and not an ego assault.
 
an0maly said:
Just to clarify something, I have been discussing aesthetic values in art of all kinds (and discussing other stuff) since very roughly 1977, and that on message boards since about 1993 or so, to now, and have been told I "may be missing something" thousands of times. Very often to my benefit, correctly so told. This kind of thing is not a personal criticism, it opens thought doors, and is part of any worthwhile discussion. Further, the word "may" indicates a speculation. One that can be countered with "may not" aesthetic arguments as well. Further, such speculation does not matter. Personal criticism is of the form, your mother dresses you funny, not you may have missed something in a work of art, or may be wanting something else in a work of art. That is an automatic part of a useful and non-boring discussion, and not an ego assault.
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It's literally an opinion difference of entertainment preference
 
They’re not letting the brilliant John Turturro ride off into the sunset. He’s willing to risk it all for love. He’s coming back guns blazing.
 
Milk and Cookies said:
They’re not letting the brilliant John Turturro ride off into the sunset. He’s willing to risk it all for love. He’s coming back guns blazing.
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Yeah, something has to reemerge in the Irving storyline. IMO, the character is second only to Milchick in the compelling rankings, and Turturro is running neck and neck with Tillman in my acting ranking. I felt Irv’s exit was far too milquetoast for a former vet with investigative skills, and an actor of Turturro’s stature. Feels like a feint. I anticipate Irv and Milchick have some unfinished business, though it may be in alliance.
 
Healing said:
Yeah, something has to reemerge in the Irving storyline. IMO, the character is second only to Milchick in the compelling rankings, and Turturro is running neck and neck with Tillman in my acting ranking. I felt Irv’s exit was far too milquetoast for a former vet with investigative skills, and an actor of Turturro’s stature. Feels like a feint. I anticipate Irv and Milchick have some unfinished business, though it may be in alliance.
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I don't know if I mentioned it here, but I have always been baffled as to why and how Irv's outie painted the grim black hallway to the testing floor last season, and it recently made me wonder if he is a past test/torture subject like Gemma. Early on (largely season 1) as an innnie he is a Kier zealot and extremely obedient--is that from repressed fear of their ability to torture? His detective, military mindset also implies he will not give up on his own goal or search, whatever it is for.

Really kind of agonizing we have only one more episode this season, and while in season 2 we have gotten so many huge answers posed by last season, we still have just as huge questions that we may or may not get resolved with this upcoming finale. I'm going to try to list both, ones at the forefront to me, and others can offer more if they like.

ANSWERS AND QUESTIONS
  1. We now know the nature of how Gemma is trapped and tortured, her own innie in various ways, and her outie, severed from those memories, and yet also trapped in a kind of experimental setting where she thinks it will be over in time and she will be released.
  2. What is her full background before teaching at college, and did Lumon in any way arrange for her to meet Mark Scott?
  3. We know Cobel is, we have to say, “of two minds” about Lumon—devout zealot about Kier, but against the modern Lumon for various big reasons, including giving her no credit for original conceptions of the severance procedure.
  4. What will Cobel actually do to help Mark Scott in his goal of freeing Gemma, and how does that fit with Cobel's own new goals of fighting back about the modern Lumon?
  5. As a child Cobel was taught and accepted that “all knowledge is Kier's” In the past she thus accepted no credit for her own innovations that led to the severance procedure. After being fired for spying on Mark Scott's outie life and getting caught, she now aparrently demands credit in some way.
  6. Does this mean Cobel wants to destroy Lumon, or in some way take it over entirely?
  7. Dr. Mauer (Robby Benson) is seen passing in the background in the flashback scene of Gemma at the fertility clinic, meaning Lumon had designs on using Gemma against Mark years in the past.
  8. Dr. Mauer is told point blank by Drummond that the completion of the Cold Harobr file means Gemma will die, and that is in Lumon's terms, the same point at which huamity's greatest achievement happens.
  9. Dr Mauer is also in some sick and twisted way in love with Gemma. Does his potential for somehow preventing her death play a part in what will happen?
  10. It seems apparent that Drumond, outie Burt, and the tall driver who looked threateningly at Cobel outside Lumon all were or are “enforcers” of various kinds. Perhaps The Board's version of Mafia hit men.
  11. Was Burt lying to Irv that he went this far, and if not (if only a driver), why did he and Fields talk of metaphysical redemption?
 
an0maly said:
I don't know if I mentioned it here, but I have always been baffled as to why and how Irv's outie painted the grim black hallway to the testing floor last season, and it recently made me wonder if he is a past test/torture subject like Gemma. Early on (largely season 1) as an innnie he is a Kier zealot and extremely obedient--is that from repressed fear of their ability to torture? His detective, military mindset also implies he will not give up on his own goal or search, whatever it is for.

Really kind of agonizing we have only one more episode this season, and while in season 2 we have gotten so many huge answers posed by last season, we still have just as huge questions that we may or may not get resolved with this upcoming finale. I'm going to try to list both, ones at the forefront to me, and others can offer more if they like.

ANSWERS AND QUESTIONS
  1. We now know the nature of how Gemma is trapped and tortured, her own innie in various ways, and her outie, severed from those memories, and yet also trapped in a kind of experimental setting where she thinks it will be over in time and she will be released.
  2. What is her full background before teaching at college, and did Lumon in any way arrange for her to meet Mark Scott?
  3. We know Cobel is, we have to say, “of two minds” about Lumon—devout zealot about Kier, but against the modern Lumon for various big reasons, including giving her no credit for original conceptions of the severance procedure.
  4. What will Cobel actually do to help Mark Scott in his goal of freeing Gemma, and how does that fit with Cobel's own new goals of fighting back about the modern Lumon?
  5. As a child Cobel was taught and accepted that “all knowledge is Kier's” In the past she thus accepted no credit for her own innovations that led to the severance procedure. After being fired for spying on Mark Scott's outie life and getting caught, she now aparrently demands credit in some way.
  6. Does this mean Cobel wants to destroy Lumon, or in some way take it over entirely?
  7. Dr. Mauer (Robby Benson) is seen passing in the background in the flashback scene of Gemma at the fertility clinic, meaning Lumon had designs on using Gemma against Mark years in the past.
  8. Dr. Mauer is told point blank by Drummond that the completion of the Cold Harobr file means Gemma will die, and that is in Lumon's terms, the same point at which huamity's greatest achievement happens.
  9. Dr Mauer is also in some sick and twisted way in love with Gemma. Does his potential for somehow preventing her death play a part in what will happen?
  10. It seems apparent that Drumond, outie Burt, and the tall driver who looked threateningly at Cobel outside Lumon all were or are “enforcers” of various kinds. Perhaps The Board's version of Mafia hit men.
  11. Was Burt lying to Irv that he went this far, and if not (if only a driver), why did he and Fields talk of metaphysical redemption?
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Burt's outie just drove the cars. Once they reached the execution point Burt would sever to his innie to kill whoever the victim was saving his outie the turmoil of being a murderer.
 
chawkheel said:
Mark S. you disappoint me.

Will Season 3 be Gemma trying to save Mark?
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FINALE SPOILER HYSTERICAL ALERT (obviously)

I think with Mark S turning away from Gemma, he has decided to for now, kill the outie--kill Mark Scott.

I struggled with choosing my weekly quote for the thread title, until I watched the finale twice. I've tended to choose some quote that rang like a bell from each episode, for being strange or memorable. After the first viewing I was thinking of, "Whatever this life is, it's all we have, and we don't want it to end." This was innie Mark's plea, his assertion of personhood, in the video cam exchange argument (one of the most bizarre, unique and incredible sequences I have ever seen).

On second viewing I think when Helly (???????) says the line, "i'm her," I read it as permission to Mark S. to free Gemma but to stay alive with Helena and Helly, I guess, inside Lumon. That scene was the most emotional impact I have felt in a series, just about ever. I could be far off base with that, but reading it otherwise at the moment breaks my brain, even more broken that it is with this episode. The other quote I considered, was "It's like both of us are one person combined."

I do think Irv returns on some sort of rescue, and who he spoke to in long past episodes on the pay phone, implies outside help; is it possible that he talked to Cobel, maybe?
 
an0maly said:
"i'm her,"
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I took this as more “I’m Ms. Casey. I’m Gemma.” though, this would entail an idealistic moralism I think this show is moving away from. Helly has consistently presented as the most holistic being in the show. She’s headstrong and vulnerable, impulsive and thoughtful, vindictive and moral, etc. I heard her say essentially Gemma must be freed, as it’s the right and just course, and “I’m her” was a way of communicating “I’m to you, what Gemma is to Mark Scout, and this injustice cannot stand.” I think this is further supported by Helly’s reaction when first learning Ms. Casey was Mark Scout’s wife - her compass immediately says “we’re getting her out, right?”

That said, the push pull scene at the end, and Helena’s father seeing Kier (who was apparently a sadistic fuck) in Helly offer mixed signals.
 
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Before that line Mark S says "But I want to live with you". So I simply took the "I'm her" response as Helly saying you can't live with me because I'm Helena Eagan.

I wonder how the Equator is going to show up in the future.

The marching band scene was awesome.

Glad we still have Dylan innie.

Happy we now have a complete Gemma in the real world to add to our characters.
 
Icky Mettle said:
Watching Mr. Milchick bust out his dance moves alone is worth the price of Apple TV+.
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Earlier in this thread somebody said they screamed out loud at season 1's finale. Last night I cried, and screamed, and laughed. But my big laugh was Dylan pushing the vending machine in front of the door. I screamed at Drummond's death, with joy, because I thought the usual action movie thing of the bad guy getting control over Mark would happen. Bang, nope.
 
an0maly said:
Earlier in this thread somebody said they screamed out loud at season 1's finale. Last night I cried, and screamed, and laughed. But my big laugh was Dylan pushing the vending machine in front of the door. I screamed at Drummond's death, with joy, because I thought the usual action movie thing of the bad guy getting control over Mark would happen. Bang, nope.
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Yep, I was totally expecting Drummond to grab the gun when Mark started to transition to his outie. Right when he told Drummond he was about to transition, I was like, “Uh oh, that’s not a good idea. That’s a couple seconds of having no control of your faculties followed by uncertainty and confusion as to why you’re holding a gun to someone.”
 
I just saw someone figured out Cold Harbor is the furniture brand that manufactured the crib. The name is on the box in the earlier episode when oMark was assembling it.
 
1. So all along they were going to kill Gemma cause they were done with their experiment (and then the goat escort). It wasn't a torture room. They simply wanted the ultimate memory test and then discard of her like garbage. They have done this to many people before. IT'S A FUCKING CULT SCIENCE COMPANY. Scientology anyone?
2. Drummond was fine killing Mark because Mark was useless at that point. Drummond was also clearly a horrible person.
3. Milchick is such a fool. Also Trammell better win a fucking Emmy. HE BETTER.
4. Innie Mark is a jackass. The whole episode was intense (great mood music) as Hell. I hated the end. But it makes season 3 have a foundation. I guess it's about Gemma now - because now, the Innies cannot leave. When they leave, they aren't coming back.
5. Where do the stairs go? She has to get out of there FAST
6. Who are the torture people that Helly, Irving and Dylan are working on?
 
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