Super's Legal Discussion Thread

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superrific

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The people who should post on this thread are: 1) lawyers or people trained in the law; 2) people who are knowledgeable about law; 3) people who are interested in learning more about legal issues of today. It is also open for discussion of what the law should be, and plenty of people can contribute to those discussions without being knowledgeable about law. I would just like everyone to be respectful of the intended level of discourse here.

If you do not fall into one of those categories, please do not post here. Let other people have some nice things. If you can't do that, then I think you should find another board. Several posters here specifically asked me to post over here (from ZZLP) because they enjoy the legal discussions and find them interesting. It is hard to have those discussions if the threads get polluted with other stuff. So, using the "don't be a dick" principle, please don't be a dick.

Anyway, the thread is open for business. I'll start by

1. Observing that Neil Gorsuch becomes the second justice to threaten Congress and Dems in particular if they attempt to exercise oversight;

2. Did everyone forget about checks and balances? We read a LOT about separation of powers. Well, the whole point of separation of powers was to provide checks and balances. If the judicial branch won't respect checks and balances, then it will have to be forced to do so, I guess. But separation of powers is both meaningless and incredibly stupid if there are no enforceable checks.

3. A constitutional amendment is not required to establish term limits. There is nothing in the constitution that requires a Supreme Court justice to continue to have active status during "good behavior." The point of lifetime tenure was to prevent Justices from having to worry about future employment prospects when their term was done. They weren't to be intimidated by economic threats. At no point was it ever intended that judges could do what they wanted and nobody could stop them.

This "amendment is required" thing is being too readily accepted by intelligent non-MAGA legal journalists.

4. The Supreme Court does not get to weigh in on the constitutionality of term limits for Justices. The Court as a whole is obviously inherently conflicted, and it's a political question, not a legal one. If the Court tries, it should be ignored. This is different than if, say, Congress passed a law defrocking Thomas without impeachment. That case could be heard by the Court because, presumably, the other 8 Justices would not be conflicted. In reality, they would be -- but this is a silly hypo considering that a) Congressional action targeted at a specific justice would be unconstitutional and b) that law would never happen.

Bon appetit
 
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Super, I have to agree on your take on the SCOTUS situation. Gorsuch talking about an independent judiciary is laughable. They aren’t independent, they’re just beholden to billionaires. Until reform could be implemented, Congress should strip SCOTUS of most appellate jurisdiction. They should also strip every district court except for DC of jurisdiction of any case challenging a federal statute or regulation.
 
This is a pretty BFD —


I had not been following it closely, but it looks like Google basically paid for a bench trial by writing a $2MM check to take compensatory damages off the table. Still might prove to be a good investment, but Mehta is a very smart judge so I’m guessing his decision on liability will not be disturbed.
I disagree that his decision on liability will not be disturbed. It won't be disturbed by the appeals court but the Supreme Court, in its present form, would almost certainly overturn. I don't think a bench trial versus a jury trial matters. The Supreme Court will overturn on legal grounds.
 
I’m a lawyer, although I know very little about constitutional law which is why I never posted much on the old ZZLP legal threads. If I feel I can contribute anything meaningful, I’ll weigh in. But I do love to follow well reasoned threads.
 
I disagree that his decision on liability will not be disturbed. It won't be disturbed by the appeals court but the Supreme Court, in its present form, would almost certainly overturn. I don't think a bench trial versus a jury trial matters. The Supreme Court will overturn on legal grounds.
I don’t have a good sense of what this court thinks about antitrust. I have a vague sense it’s more results-oriented than anything, and I’m not sure it will be sympathetic to Google. But you probably have a better impression than I do. Antitrust proficiency requires more brain cells than I have available at the moment.
 
Super, I have to agree on your take on the SCOTUS situation. Gorsuch talking about an independent judiciary is laughable. They aren’t independent, they’re just beholden to billionaires. Until reform could be implemented, Congress should strip SCOTUS of most appellate jurisdiction. They should also strip every district court except for DC of jurisdiction of any case challenging a federal statute or regulation.
1. I really don't like the strip SCOTUS of appellate jurisdiction idea. I understand the idea, but without Supreme Court appellate jurisdiction, the law will become a mess. There will also be nobody to control the extremists like the Fifth Circuit. Now, I grant that SCOTUS is pretty extremist itself, but nothing like the Fifth. In fact, this term could be summarized as a) a sustained erosion of democracy; b) a blatant frontal attack on agency expertise; and c) a smackdown of the Fifth.

2. Here's my take on term limits. Article II states that Supreme Court judges (like other officers) can be removed from office if impeached and convicted for "High Crimes And Misdemeanors." Article III, meanwhile, says that Judges shall hold their offices during "Good Behavior." If "Good Behavior" doesn't establish a higher standard for judicial conduct (that is, makes it easier to remove), then it is mere surplusage. Why bother saying that if it's already established that they can be removed upon impeachment.

Since the standards for "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" are not specified, it is meaningless to say that some action could be "not a high crime" but also not "good behavior." I mean, sure -- there is theoretical space between those concepts, but there are no clues at all about what they would be. It would be awfully strange to write a document that says, "Congress could do one thing in the case of X, and another thing in the case of Y, and we will indicate nothing about the nature of the difference between X and Y." Like, that's not coherent.

So I conclude that the difference between impeachment and removal for not "good behavior" has to be procedural -- namely that Congress has the power to remove judges by statute. Now there needs to be limits on how that power is exercised -- for one thing, "good behavior" probably should have some teeth to it, and can't just be "whatever Congress wants" as in the case of impeachment. But term limits doesn't need to deal with that issue. All we have to prove is that Congress can regulate the terms of Supreme Court justices by statute. And the Good Behavior clause, if it means anything (and maybe it doesn't), should mean that Congress can regulate judicial service.

3. If I'm right that there is ambiguity, then why don't we look to original intent, 'cause you know? I haven't read all the Convention discussions about this issue, but the text hints at what I think the Framers' were really concerned about: financial pressure. If you were trying to insulate a person from being squeezed financially, what would you do? Two things are required: first, the person gets to keep his job; second, his pay in that job can't be decreased. And that's exactly what Article III states -- in the same sentence, no less. They hold their jobs, and they can't have their pay cut.

There's no way that the Framers thought that the justices had some sort of entitlement to decide cases. The prevailing view of the judicial power at the time left no room for disparities in individual judgment. The law was the law; judges do not create law but find it. There would be no reason for the Framers to think, "well, we need to make sure this guy continues to decide cases as long as he wants" when they didn't think that the person deciding the case was germane to its outcome. Judges were, at least in theory, fungible so why would the Framers care if Congress wanted to swap in one Justice for another? The only thing that mattered was financial pressure.

I suppose you could make the argument that the prospect of losing all of one's power would exert as much influence over the court as cutting the salary. I doubt that was the Framers' view, for the obvious reason that financial security was an issue for Justices (there were no mega-firms that would hire the judges if they quit). But even if we think that part of the irreducible nature of the job is the actual act of judging, it is implausible that the Framers intended to ensure that the judges retain all their power to decide every case forever as long as they may live. There is just no textual evidence for this, and I very much doubt there is historical evidence either.

4. The best argument against my view is that Congress seems to have believed, for most our history, that a constitutional amendment would be necessary. But to my knowledge, none of the proposed constitutional amendments contemplated a senior status.

In addition, it is well accepted that Congress can add Justices. Well, adding a Justice and term limiting another is functionally the same thing -- not identical, but actually adding justices is worse when it comes to judicial independence. Term limits can be defended on neutral principles. Can expanding the Court? When liberals talk about adding justices, we don't claim that an 11 member court is better than a 9 member court. We say that we need more Justices to pull the court away from its headlong rush into the abyss. So if that's permitted, and can be done by statute, then it would make no sense for term limits not to be.

That's my take.
 
I don’t have a good sense of what this court thinks about antitrust. I have a vague sense it’s more results-oriented than anything, and I’m not sure it will be sympathetic to Google. But you probably have a better impression than I do. Antitrust proficiency requires more brain cells than I have available at the moment.
Well, in my experience, people look at antitrust enforcement as a type of regulation. There's no reason in the world why a person can't be 1) pro-strong antitrust enforcement and 2) against OSHA or the EPA, but I haven't met any of those people. I knew one guy who was maybe sorta in that camp, though his commitment to antitrust enforcement was weak. From the outset, then, I'd bet that the Justices are hostile to antitrust enforcement.

There haven't been too many cases for the Court in antitrust, and the ones it has decided have been complex (except for the NCAA case). But the evidence is telling. In the 2018 Am Ex case, the majority just got hoodwinked by Am Ex. I don't even know what to say. It doesn't look to be outcome driven. And yet Breyer's dissent makes absolute mincemeat of the majority. I don't understand what the majority even thought it was doing. The government proved that Am Ex's policies made prices go up. That's the end of it. You don't have to look at "market power" if you see the evidence directly. So chalk this one up to stupidity. I don't know which side that would favor.

But it's worth noting that the lineup in that 2018 case was 5-4, with Breyer, Sotomayor, Kagan and Ginsburg in dissent. Same with the 2013 case of Activis. That's an incredibly technical issue and I have neither time nor inclination to read it in depth. I'll just note that the lineup was 5-3, with the four liberals plus Kennedy against Roberts, Scalia and Thomas (Alito did not participate). So again, this has to be significant. Breyer has always been the preeminent authority on antitrust; I can't remember a case where I think he got it even slightly wrong. This tells me that Roberts at least has hostility to antitrust prosecution.
 
Can I get your opinion on this whole ordeal? Let me know if this is not your intent for this thread.

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Can I get your opinion on this whole ordeal? Let me know if this is not your intent for this thread.

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What do you want me to say, other than virtually every word of it is false?

If you want an update on what parts of the J6 indictment are likely to get tossed, and which will stay, I recommend this piece.

 
What do you want me to say, other than virtually every word of it is false?

If you want an update on what parts of the J6 indictment are likely to get tossed, and which will stay, I recommend this piece.

Super I love you man you have shared both your great legal knowledge along with your great knowledge of mental health and personal struggles. I'm starting a new men's group with my therapist to discuss s*** that none of us has grown ass men ever discussed. Can't help but think you're a front runner on this and you motivated me to join up for that and I am grateful. That said if you could dumb down the argument to Cliff notes or maybe Tim Walz level (which I know is impossible) as smart as you are you can at least get it to my level! I understand that I can also elevate my knowledge and you help me with both. Guess I just wanted to validate you as a great contributor!
 
Super I love you man you have shared both your great legal knowledge along with your great knowledge of mental health and personal struggles. I'm starting a new men's group with my therapist to discuss s*** that none of us has grown ass men ever discussed. Can't help but think you're a front runner on this and you motivated me to join up for that and I am grateful. That said if you could dumb down the argument to Cliff notes or maybe Tim Walz level (which I know is impossible) as smart as you are you can at least get it to my level! I understand that I can also elevate my knowledge and you help me with both. Guess I just wanted to validate you as a great contributor!
I appreciate the sentiment. I can't "dumb down" that link too much because it's a largely a compendium of information. I'll just copy-and-paste the basic argument:

"On our view, the Court’s decision leaves the core of the case against Trump intact. A fair application of the Court’s new immunity test to the indictment’s allegations yields a narrowed but still plainly viable prosecution. "

Good for you to work with your therapist. I've never been a big fan of group therapy but that might just be me. I'm not all that relatable (bidirectionally) in several ways, which I know will be shocking to many posters here. That group therapy doesn't fit me doesn't mean it's bad.
 
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