Super's Legal Discussion Thread

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Can I get your opinion on this whole ordeal? Let me know if this is not your intent for this thread.

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Safe rule of thumb is that anything Trump says about legal matters is 100% bullshit. There’s literally not a single person in this country more oblivious to the requirements of the law than Donald J. Trump. He would be the last of all Americans who should be able to be licensed as an attorney. That’s no exaggeration. The last.
 
For the record, it's not like I thought Donald Trump was saying something legitimate, I was more saying there are some questions about how all of it will play out after the Supreme Court ruling is what I was more getting at.
 
For the record, it's not like I thought Donald Trump was saying something legitimate, I was more saying there are some questions about how all of it will play out after the Supreme Court ruling is what I was more getting at.
Oh, I see what you were asking.

My opinion on the whole ordeal is that the Supreme Court f'd up badly. There's no way this ends well for the country. It will have to be reversed. I wouldn't discount the possibility of a constitutional amendment -- once Trump is out of the way. I can't imagine there are too many states where people would be opposed to overturning that decision, assuming that their guy isn't being affected.

As for the ordeal coming up, I don't really have any useful thoughts. I mean, even Jack Smith's team is like, "Judge, can we think about this some more?" The opinion was so incoherent, and so full of contradictory statements, and so short on reasoning, that's really hard to determine what it means.

To be on the safe side, I would assume that the Supreme Court never lets Trump get convicted for J6. The live case will be the documents one after the 11th Cir reverses Cannon and hopefully reassigns the case.
 
It's still better than the shit filed by the Sovereign Citizens idiots, and this woman is likely schizophrenic.
Yeah, it’s funny on the surface but she’s clearly acutely ill. At least she did something amusing while psychotic vs. something dangerous.
 
It's still better than the shit filed by the Sovereign Citizens idiots, and this woman is likely schizophrenic.
I've actually dealt with those sov morons as a prosecutor in Michigan. Hooboy I can't tell you how many times I was FOIA'd bc I dared to speak their name "without consent." The first time the County Attorney got one for me I asked what to do about it and he took a printout of all my info and then took a fat sharpie and redacted everything but my first name (front and back so they couldn't see through it by using a light source) and said "this is all you need to do."

They are fuckin crazy
 
Why are limitation of liability (and sometimes indemnification) clauses written in all caps in contracts?
 
Why are limitation of liability (and sometimes indemnification) clauses written in all caps in contracts?
So the buyers can't come back later and say, "I didn't see that section, I didn't know what I was signing." I've never seen that in contracts negotiated between lawyers. Those are consumer contracts, called contracts of adhesion. They are drafted by lawyers, and people are expected to sign them as an absolute condition of purchasing a product and they don't really have a meaningful opportunity to consult a lawyer. Courts have been somewhat sympathetic to ordinary people fleeced by the fine print. Well, capitalizing is the opposite of fine print.
 
So the buyers can't come back later and say, "I didn't see that section, I didn't know what I was signing." I've never seen that in contracts negotiated between lawyers. Those are consumer contracts, called contracts of adhesion. They are drafted by lawyers, and people are expected to sign them as an absolute condition of purchasing a product and they don't really have a meaningful opportunity to consult a lawyer. Courts have been somewhat sympathetic to ordinary people fleeced by the fine print. Well, capitalizing is the opposite of fine print.
These are B2B contracts that I'm looking at, and it has the effect (to me) of diminishing everything not written in all caps - seems silly.
 
These are B2B contracts that I'm looking at, and it has the effect (to me) of diminishing everything not written in all caps - seems silly.
Well B2B can still be contracts of adhesion. I implied, unintentionally and errantly, that all contracts of adhesion are consumer contracts. They are the most common type of adhesion contracts, but a contract of adhesion refers to the fact that one party has no choice but to accept its terms.

It does have that effect. I don't know if that's a feature, but it's not a bug. If you don't read the stuff in non-caps, you probably can't sue to get out of the deal under a "I didn't understand what I was signing" theory. So the seller doesn't really care if you read it or not. Probably better that you don't.

It's also true that contracts are rarely drafted from scratch. New contracts are forged by making changes to old contracts, and big organizations really need to have standardized contracts as much as possible. If there are 50,000 clients, they can't afford to require their attorneys to read every client contract individually. So if they have standardized all-caps stuff in some of their contracts, they might as well put that same stuff in their other contracts as well.
 
Hey Super (and other lawyers), I am moving this question here because I don't want to derail the P Diddy thread and updates there. Then, I got confused as to which of your threads to post on. I am not a lawyer but I want to ask lawyers and learn of your training and legal theory here. Also (I think) doing in a respectful manner. It's not even political. Anyway, here goes....

Dear His Honored Member,

Diddy in big trouble. Details leaking out now. It is vile and inhumane, the charges and accusations.

I fully respect our system (well the core tenets of it, not the subversion and unjust priviledge of many including Trump). I know that he is innocent until proven guilty. I also know that he is entitled to fair representation, and with his money he can afford well beyond fair.

But I also know prosecutors, and the FBI, do not bring charges without ample evidence, especially against a high profile citizen.

Someone or some group has to represent him. A question for the lawyers -- would you represent someone you knew was guilty, and if usually not, would you make exceptions for a huge payday and attention?

I'm just curious. I am sure criminal lawyers can rationalize it to themselves by thinking it is my job and the charged is entitled to my best effort. But you've got to go out there and say stuff like Diddy's lawyers are already doing. Paraphrasing, "He is an icon in his field, he has done so much for the black community. He is not perfect, but he is not a criminal." You've got to attack his victims and add to their trauma. It is not just prostitution, it is drugging and forcing into group sexual acts, assault, kidnapping (or holding against their will, etc.)

I could not do it, if I knew he was guilty and I got him cleared, knowing the details of what the victims went through.

Of course there is the possibility his legal team believes he is innocent and will believe it through all the evidence. But I am skeptical.
 
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But I also know prosecutors, and the FBI, do not bring charges without ample evidence, especially against a high profile citizen.

Someone or some group has to represent him. A question for the lawyers -- would you represent someone you knew was guilty, and if usually not, would you make exceptions for a huge payday and attention?
This is a question discussed in every law school course on professional responsibility. And informally among law students and young lawyers.

Most criminal defense attorneys, I think, have made peace with this scenario. They say that their job is to serve justice in gross, not necessarily in each case. It's important to criminal justice for every person to have access to a (ideally) high-quality legal defense. Making the prosecution work hard to prove its case is considered a feature, not a bug. It's (hopefully) a protection against skullduggery by the prosecutors and the police. It's true that we don't always get equal justice, nor do prosecutors and police always follow the law or go after the right people for the right reasons. On the other hand, we have a bunch of legal protections built into our system that aren't necessarily easy to notice because they are so common -- but they are there because otherwise criminal attorneys will have a field day.

For instance, forensics labs are pretty high quality, from what I understand. Yes, there are high profile fuckups (wasn't there one in NC, where an employee of the SBI was mucking with tests?) but for the most part, forensic analysis is pretty good and technically sound (there are exceptions, of course). Forensic testing, for instance, frequently rules out suspects who might otherwise be hounded or prosecuted. We also have Brady requirements, which are honored most of the time. The Fourth Amendment also offers protections.

Arguably, none of these protections would exist without criminal defense attorneys who will pound on every deficiency. Without criminal defense attorneys bringing Fourth Am claims, the courts wouldn't be able to enforce the Fourth Am and police departments would be able to run wild with searches. If there are fuckups in forensic labs, lots of convicted people could go free -- with defense attorneys, of course -- which creates pressure on state agencies to make sure their forensic labs are of sufficient quality.

So yeah, it sucks to represent a monstrous client. I don't do criminal defense work, so I wouldn't know (though I had to represent some unsavory characters in appellate practice at Jones Day), but the argument that the defense attorney is serving the system as much as the client isn't wrong, in my view. I'm not sure just how convincing it is, but it's valid. My impression of mob lawyers is that they aren't very good people (see, e.g., Roy Cohn), but probably the majority of criminal defense attorneys are good people who don't see their job as helping guilty people avoid justice.


Since we have a right not to self-incriminate, there is no way for the justice system to deny representation to the most heinous of criminals.
 
Thanks Super, exactly the explanation I was seeking. I was pretty sure this had to be a major component of law school, ethics, etc. Thanks for the great response.

I'm not sure of the NC forensics story you are talking about. But the forensics example sure helped. On a podcast I listen to, there was a major case where the defendant was found guilty of murder. There was vast evidence to prove his guilt. But the defense lawyers (not sure if the same ones as original trial), actually got it overturned on a 2nd or 3rd appeal attempt. They somehow discovered that the primary forensics "expert" on the murder scene actually had no training or certification (no clue what he was doing), and the (guilty) client was set free. Very bizarre, and I don't know how that was possible he got the job.

But back to your point, yes a guilty man was set free after a number of years rather than his life sentence. But how many innocent people did this fraud help put away (your system reference).
 
Thanks Super, exactly the explanation I was seeking. I was pretty sure this had to be a major component of law school, ethics, etc. Thanks for the great response.

I'm not sure of the NC forensics story you are talking about. But the forensics example sure helped. On a podcast I listen to, there was a major case where the defendant was found guilty of murder. There was vast evidence to prove his guilt. But the defense lawyers (not sure if the same ones as original trial), actually got it overturned on a 2nd or 3rd appeal attempt. They somehow discovered that the primary forensics "expert" on the murder scene actually had no training or certification (no clue what he was doing), and the (guilty) client was set free. Very bizarre, and I don't know how that was possible he got the job.

But back to your point, yes a guilty man was set free after a number of years rather than his life sentence. But how many innocent people did this fraud help put away (your system reference).
Here's one scandal and the article mentions another. Scandal isn't the right word but I'm in a rush


The News & Observer reported this month in a series, "Agents' Secrets," that analysts across the laboratory push past the accepted bounds of science to deliver results pleasing to prosecutors.

That shit in forensics labs is sadly not uncommon enough and would be ubiquitous without the courts trying to police it.
 
This is a question discussed in every law school course on professional responsibility. And informally among law students and young lawyers.

Most criminal defense attorneys, I think, have made peace with this scenario. They say that their job is to serve justice in gross, not necessarily in each case. It's important to criminal justice for every person to have access to a (ideally) high-quality legal defense. Making the prosecution work hard to prove its case is considered a feature, not a bug. It's (hopefully) a protection against skullduggery by the prosecutors and the police. It's true that we don't always get equal justice, nor do prosecutors and police always follow the law or go after the right people for the right reasons. On the other hand, we have a bunch of legal protections built into our system that aren't necessarily easy to notice because they are so common -- but they are there because otherwise criminal attorneys will have a field day.

For instance, forensics labs are pretty high quality, from what I understand. Yes, there are high profile fuckups (wasn't there one in NC, where an employee of the SBI was mucking with tests?) but for the most part, forensic analysis is pretty good and technically sound (there are exceptions, of course). Forensic testing, for instance, frequently rules out suspects who might otherwise be hounded or prosecuted. We also have Brady requirements, which are honored most of the time. The Fourth Amendment also offers protections.

Arguably, none of these protections would exist without criminal defense attorneys who will pound on every deficiency. Without criminal defense attorneys bringing Fourth Am claims, the courts wouldn't be able to enforce the Fourth Am and police departments would be able to run wild with searches. If there are fuckups in forensic labs, lots of convicted people could go free -- with defense attorneys, of course -- which creates pressure on state agencies to make sure their forensic labs are of sufficient quality.

So yeah, it sucks to represent a monstrous client. I don't do criminal defense work, so I wouldn't know (though I had to represent some unsavory characters in appellate practice at Jones Day), but the argument that the defense attorney is serving the system as much as the client isn't wrong, in my view. I'm not sure just how convincing it is, but it's valid. My impression of mob lawyers is that they aren't very good people (see, e.g., Roy Cohn), but probably the majority of criminal defense attorneys are good people who don't see their job as helping guilty people avoid justice.


Since we have a right not to self-incriminate, there is no way for the justice system to deny representation to the most heinous of criminals.

I got to know several mob lawyers (represented detroit & cleveland guys, not new york) as a prosecutor in Michigan and while this is anecdotal, honestly, maybe one or two were absolute POS's to me initially but learned that despite being a greenhorn I wasn't someone that was awestruck by ridiculously expensive suits. The rest of the dozen or so that I interacted with were a range from indifferent to cordial to awesome. That said, all were very professional - even the ones who were POS's.

When I left the prosecutors office to move to Virginia I had two call me up and wish me well and invited me to play golf at the local CC. One of those two I kept in contact with for more than a decade until he passed away.

That said, would I have lunch or play golf with Bruce Cuttler (John Gotti's lawyer who has since been disbarred)? Probably not.
 
Birds of a feather.... truth is negotiable in legal terms? Methinks folks like me could not care less about many of the arguments.
There's an old adage about a defendant whose lawyer and the prosecutor after he's found guilty decide to go to lunch together. The defendant says "I thought you were defending me I didn't realize you were friends?"
His lawyer responds lawyers are like scissors both sides are Sharp but they only cut that which is between them. To be honest that's always what I hear from lawyers.
 
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