The Charlie Kirk Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rock
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 4K
  • Views: 105K
  • Politics 
It might help your case if you could produce examples of Dems having meaningful involvement.

Right. Thanks for supporting the point I made earlier, which is that the things Democrats say aren't reckless and harmful rhetoric because they are true, which is why you just can't figure out anything they've done wrong.

Like I said, I had no misconceptions about getting agreement on this topic.
 
Right. Thanks for supporting the point I made earlier, which is that the things Democrats say aren't reckless and harmful rhetoric because they are true, which is why you just can't figure out anything they've done wrong.

Like I said, I had no misconceptions about getting agreement on this topic.

Laura Loomer put him in the crosshairs? Said he should be willing to die for his stance and not a Trump supporter?

Nick Fuentes beefing with kirk?
 

Laura Loomer put him in the crosshairs? Said he should be willing to die for his stance and not a Trump supporter?

Nick Fuentes beefing with kirk?
Governor Cox and Kash Patel have already told you the shooter had leftist ideology, expect the indictment to be consistent with their claims. I doubt they’ll dig into the groyper overlap.

With Kash & Friends putting it together, I won’t be surprised to read that in the days prior to the shooting, Tyler Robinson was feverishly studying the writings of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
 
I can’t think of many occasions where the NFL held moments of silence for people who either were not affiliated with the NFL or were not members of the community where the moment of silence took place. And it’s especially difficult to wrap my head around someone whose claim to fame was essentially saying so many cruel, divisive, hateful, and inflammatory things getting a moment of silence at such an event.
He spoke on behalf of billionaires everywhere, so many such people mourn his passing.
 
I haven't been able to get a single Dem poster to acknowledge meaningful involvement of their party in this current situation.

I can if they apply.

Right. Dems have no meaningful involvement. Dems are just "calling it like it is and, I mean, they're right, so what's wrong with saying what is true?"

Standard stuff for which I have no cure.
"meaningful involvement" is way subjective.

i've said this to you no less than 17 times over the last several days. there are some examples of bad, divisive rhetoric from the left but it is categorically outnumbered in both frequency and temperature by the rhetoric coming from right wing politicians and influencers.
 
lol i know that people here haven't talked to gay/trans people because every single one i know has experience with conservative/republican chasers.
I know a few Trans people, but that conversation has never come up. Maybe I should ask.
 
Right. Thanks for supporting the point I made earlier, which is that the things Democrats say aren't reckless and harmful rhetoric because they are true, which is why you just can't figure out anything they've done wrong.

Like I said, I had no misconceptions about getting agreement on this topic.
By your standards, MLK, Gandhi and Jesus were all "divisive." Which, incidentally, was what the white Southerners, British and Romans said in each instance.
 

Laura Loomer put him in the crosshairs? Said he should be willing to die for his stance and not a Trump supporter?

Nick Fuentes beefing with kirk?
Again... anything is possible but Kirk was clearly anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ. Tyler was in some kind of relationship and living with a transgender person.

I guess I don't see how anti-semitism/white nationalism fits into this
 
By your standards, MLK, Gandhi and Jesus were all "divisive." Which, incidentally, was what the white Southerners, British and Romans said in each instance.
Perfect. Now Dems are really just like Jesus, Gandhi and MLK.

Again, thanks for supporting my point.
 
The cross dresser part is unsubstantiated, but not the gay part. His lifelong "close friend" Clyde Tolson sure as hell acted like a life partner. They would go on vacation together. Hoover bequeathed his estate to Tolson. Tolson accepted the flag that draped Hoover's coffin. Tolson is buried a few yards away from Hoover.

Roy Cohn was a source of information about Hoover, and he was definitely credible on that particular subject. Cohn's take was that Hoover was too scared of his sexuality to act on it, but that's still confirming that he was gay or bi. As for the cross-dressing, you're right a lot of the published material relies on an unreliable witness, but Roy Cohn apparently told people about it before it became a topic of public discussion. Now, that's hearsay and unreliable I think, but it's more than just one witness. That said, it is not well established at all.

The homo/bisexuality seems pretty solid, even if there are people who deny it. Another piece of evidence: Lela Rodgers was his beard.
In my reading about non-monogamous relationships, it seems that this is a lot more common than most would believe.
 
I can’t think of many occasions where the NFL held moments of silence for people who either were not affiliated with the NFL or were not members of the community where the moment of silence took place. And it’s especially difficult to wrap my head around someone whose claim to fame was essentially saying so many cruel, divisive, hateful, and inflammatory things getting a moment of silence at such an event.
I think the moments of silence by some NFL teams this weekend were unwarranted, but let's not forget that the NFL honored a dude who live-streamed himself committing a drive-by shooting and then live-streamed himself running from the police in a high-speed chase before shooting at a cop and being killed in the return fire. The NFL allowed players to wear his name on their helmets if they chose. None did. The same NFL then prohibited the Cowboys from honoring 5 police officers killed during an ambush with their own decals. So, it isn't as if the NFL is consistently pandering to the right. They pander to anyone depending on how the wind is blowing.
 
I think the moments of silence by some NFL teams this weekend were unwarranted, but let's not forget that the NFL honored a dude who live-streamed himself committing a drive-by shooting and then live-streamed himself running from the police in a high-speed chase before shooting at a cop and being killed in the return fire. The NFL allowed players to wear his name on their helmets if they chose. None did. The same NFL then prohibited the Cowboys from honoring 5 police officers killed during an ambush with their own decals. So, it isn't as if the NFL is consistently pandering to the right. They pander to anyone depending on how the wind is blowing.
Don’t disagree about the NFL blowing in the wind, but wasn’t the thing with the slain cops more a tone deaf enforcement of strict rules about equipment decals rather than some political action? The NFL didn’t say no, no don’t have a moment of silence or prayer or dedicate the game or do whatever else, they just wouldn’t make a (reasonable) exception to a strict uniform policy(?)
 
Don’t disagree about the NFL blowing in the wind, but wasn’t the thing with the slain cops more a tone deaf enforcement of strict rules about equipment decals rather than some political action? The NFL didn’t say no, no don’t have a moment of silence or prayer or dedicate the game or do whatever else, they just wouldn’t make a (reasonable) exception to a strict uniform policy(?)
Yeah, here it is:

“… "Everyone has to be uniform with the league and the other 31 teams," Jerry Jones said Wednesday. "We respect their decision."

It's pretty easy to get upset about the NFL over this. The league has a long history of appearing tone deaf when it comes to letting players and teams support various causes. Brandon Marshall, then with the Bears, was fined more than $10,000 for wearing green shoes to raise awareness for mental-health issues.

Steelers running back DeAngelo Williams wanted to wear pink all season long to honor his mother, who died of breast cancer. The NFL told him no.

But there is, as Jones pointed out, a "Pandora's box" issue at hand. If you let the Cowboys support fallen police officers, you've probably got to let Williams wear pink all season. And if you let him wear pink all season, you probably can't stop [Player X] from wearing [color] for [cause].

"There are so many wonderful, wonderful causes, the league has to be careful," Jones said earlier in camp about the possibility of wearing the decal in games.

"If you allow one, then what do you do about every team that has a great reason to have something on their helmets?…”

 
It's certainly reasonable that Robinson was entrenched in meme-culture. It seems very likely. However, the theory I've seen here is that Robinson was a groypher who killed Kirk because Kirk wasn't conservative enough, e.g., Robinson was ultra-conservative. That doesn't pass the smell test if he had a trans roommate.
Smell test isn’t reliable with these things. It’s wild stuff.
 
Perfect. Now Dems are really just like Jesus, Gandhi and MLK.

Again, thanks for supporting my point.
You are so bad at logic.

If Dems are not divisive, and also Jesus, Gandhi and MLK were not divisive, that does not mean Dems are like Jesus, Gandhi and MLK in any other respect.

Here we go again. You make errors that my 11 year old would see through. Why you are proud of that, I have no idea.
 
I continue to struggle with why his motive matters. That said, I would imagine that since he is alive we will learn more. I don't expect it will change much other than one team gets to say, "See, it was your guy."
 
I don't think the damage comes from describing Trump's actions or the actions of his administration. Just by describing an event (minors being shipped to Guatemala), you are expressing how terrible it is. A person can objectively describe the events surrounding Kirk's death and express sadness in a way that all people can understand and relate to - "It's horrible when someone is killed for their political beliefs" or "He was a father of two and a husband", etc.

That's not where it generally ends. It often gets into fascist, racist, Hitler, dictator, ruining the country, he's not leaving office, putting gays in cages...There's much more than that I could spend time digging up IF I thought it would matter.

I've said repeatedly that Trump is the biggest piece of shit ever to hold the Presidency. He, his lies, those on the right who enabled him and social media have divided the country, but Democrats have absolutely contributed with hyperbole, dangerous rhetoric, sometimes violent rhetoric, etc.
I think there's a couple different things being conflated here, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

First, I generally agree (and have said many times) that Dems and leftists need to avoid hyperventilating, doom-crying predictions about what Trump will do in the future (like "he's going to put gays in cages!" or "he's going to try to stay in office forever," etc.). It worked against Dems in 2016 when they made all sorts of horrible predictions about what a Trump presidency would mean, and while Trump 1.0 was an objectively awful president, whose policies or lack thereof did real harm to a lot of people, the sky didn't fall and the country didn't descend into chaos and pigs didn't start flying. So when the same predictions got recycled in 2024 it fell flat with a lot of people. It made what was objectively a bad presidency seem not so bad because the predictions were so much worse.

Second, it is generally unhelpful and counterproductive for Dems to paint with a broad brush with pejorative terms applied to Trump's supporters (racist, fascist, "deplorables," etc) because nobody ever sees themselves as those things and using that sort of language just pushes people away.

But I simply can't agree that we should never apply labels like "authoritarian" or "fascist" to Trump (and the members of his administration and media mouthpieces), because it is important to put his actions and words into their proper political and historical context for people who might not understand that context. It is important, for example, to say and explain why stuff like these statements by Trump or his influential minions is overtly fascist rhetoric:

"In honor of our great veterans on Veterans Day, we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical-left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country—that lie and steal and cheat on elections, and will do anything possible; they'll do anything, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America, and to destroy the American Dream"

"It's time for the Trump administration to shut down, defund, and prosecute every single leftist organization."

""The Democrat Party must be classified as a domestic terror organization and their members and leaders treated accordingly."

Calling the press "the enemy of the people"

Saying that the "Democrat Party . . . supports everything that God hates."

"[Immigrants] are poisoning the blood of our country."

"There is [a leftist] ideology that has steadily been growing in this country, which hates everything that is good, righteous and beautiful and celebrates everything that is warped, twisted and depraved. . . . It is an ideology that leads, always, inevitably and willfully, to violence. The fate of millions depends on the defeat of this wicked ideology.”

"The power of law enforcement, under President Trump’s leadership, will be used to find you, will be used to take away your money, take away your power, and, if you’ve broken the law, to take away your freedom."


Calling out rhetoric like this as overtly fascist rhetoric is important to help illustrate to people how far outside the modern American political discourse statements like this are. To not call out this rhetoric as extreme is too allow it to be normalized. Similarly, to not call out the Trump admin for its overtly authoritarian tendencies (many of which were explicitly outlined in Project 2025, which Trump laughably denied any knowledge of) - such as the the shameful example I gave of its lies, deception, and utter disregard for the law in immigrant deportations; the EO on birthright citizenship; the desire to suppress and punish critical speech; the willingness to leverage the executive power of the President to compel and coerce universities and businesses to do what the President wants them to do; etc) is to give the impression that they are all within the realm of ordinary political policy disagreements, rather than fundamental attacks on the legitimacy and power of the rule of law and the other branches of the federal government.

So while I agree that sometimes the use of pejorative labels can be problematic - especially when applied to followers rather than leaders of a political movement - I simply can't agree that when Trump walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, we shouldn't call him a duck.
 
Back
Top