Thread for non-MAGA Christians

TarSpiel

TarSpiel

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So, this is something I think about a lot. I grew up in a conservative evangelical household in a conservative town, and fell in love with Jesus at a really early age. I entrusted my life to the Lord when I was in elementary school, and never ever forgot my surrender to His will. To this day, it is the central reality of my life.

As I grew and developed, I lost a lot of the Christian dogma that those around me told me I needed to believe in. Things like the inerrancy of scripture, the existence of hell, and the numinous divine approbation that suffused American and Western history. I learned that Jews also believed that God is Love, and so did Muslims. That Buddhist meditation merged with the Tao te Ching can make eating a spoonful of Cheeri-Os a divine epiphany, even without marijuana. That ethics wasn't a religious issue, it was a survival one. That religion could bring a black person and a white one together under one roof, and might in fact have developed specifically for that sort of reason, to unite tribes under one banner.

Anyway, I retained my love of Jesus and his gospel, and my trust in God's will, even while I lost a lot of standard Christian dogma. Then I went to UNC and became Bart Ehrman's grad student for 6 or 7 years, and really deepened my knowledge of the Bible - old and new - and the cultural and historical contexts that produced it. Bart was and is a pretty strongly atheist-leaning agnostic, and I'm a pretty strongly theist-leaning agnostic, but we got along famously, and never really discussed theology at all anyway. He's wicked smart, and has one of my favorite senses of humor I've ever come across. He's also in his own way extremely humble, and a genuine spiritual seeker. I just feel extremely blessed to have gotten to meet him and know him, and have him be my teacher in so many ways, on so many topics.

All that intellectual study really rammed home for me the major defining point not only of Jesus and Christianity, but also of the Judaism that produced it. And that is a deep, abiding, and selfless commitment to the physical, emotional and spiritual well being of five classes of people: the poor, the sick, foster kids, elderly women living alone, and immigrants. Those categories of people are mentioned all over in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments, and are the ground bass for the entire Biblical tradition: make sure everyone is taken care of, and don't exclude anyone ever.

The modern American republican party perverts this gospel into a "Christianity" that is about abortion (not in the Bible), homosexuality (hardly in the Bible), or immigration (in the Bible, but as an injunction to welcome immigrants and provide for them). I don't believe in Satan or dark powers, but it's absolutely true that Christianity has been corrupted into a kind of American nationalism that would have been bewildering not only to Jesus, but also to the majority of Christian theologians until about 1500.

And money? Donald Trump wants to make us all rich? If there's one teaching that runs all throughout Jesus' ministry, it's that wealth is neutral at best, but most often actively spiritually destructive.

I don't mind atheists, because at least they're honest. MAGA "Christians" though? Lord help us.

Donald Trump and MAGA are an active cancer on my religion. I know there are a lot of Christians who feel the same way. Maybe not the majority, but a lot.
 
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Definitely feel very much the same. American fundamentalist Christianity is hyper focused on abortion, homosexuality, guns and amassing wealth. Those obsessions are so far from Jesus's teachings that it just floors me how so much of the Church somehow misses it. Jesus was clearly about humility, empathy, and sacrifice, and today's champion of the Christian right is somehow Donald Trump, the antithesis of that. It sickens me.
 
TarSpiel this is an awesome thread topic! Thanks for starting it. I think you and I have discussed this before, but I think we may have juuuust missed one another at UNC. I think you said that you were a TA in Dr. Ehrman's Intro to the New Testament course? I took that course during the second semester of my freshman year at UNC (2010) and to this day I maintain that it was the very best class I ever took at Carolina. I'll never forget it. Bart may be the smartest person I've ever met, and also the best teacher I've ever met.

I came to UNC from a really small, rural part of North Carolina and grew up in the Southern Baptist church- the twice on Sundays, once on Wednesdays kind of place. I just remember as a kid feeling so fearful of going to church because it was always "you're going to hellfire and brimstone." That kind of rhetoric is really toxic. Anyway, going to Bart's Intro to the New Testament class was truly one of those life-changing moments for me because it was the first time in my life where it was okay to question the Bible, question Christianity, question everything that I'd been told about God. I also think it's where I began to learn how to think critically and for myself.

These days, I would absolutely consider myself a person of faith but not of religiosity. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, born, crucified, and resurrected. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I try my very best to adhere to the words written in red. But I don't enjoy organized religion and in fact, I have not been a consistent church-goer since leaving home for college.

What MAGA Christians have done to poison the well of Christianity is nearly unforgivable. By MAGA Christians, I mean anyone who claims to be a Christian but also espouses anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-woman, hateful, judgmental rhetoric in the name of God.

Anyway, the funniest two things that I remember from Bart's class were the following:

1. You could always tell who the freshmen were in the class because they were the same ones trying to argue with both Bart and Gary the Pit Preacher.

2. On the very first day of class, the very first thing Bart said when he walked in and addressed our lecture hall of ~300 students was, "Okay, show of hands: who has read Harry Potter cover to cover?" *Every hand in the auditorium goes up* "Okay, who believes that the Bible is the literal Word of God?" *Most hands remain raised* "Okay, who has read the Bible cover to cover?" *Every single hand in the ~300 person lecture hall goes down. "You all mean to tell me that you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God Himself, and yet none of you has ever read the whole thing?!"
 
I support and encourage posters who can add their faith statements in support of the Grace of Jesus Christ and His love and mercy for all the fallen
 
CFordUNC said:
TarSpiel this is an awesome thread topic! Thanks for starting it. I think you and I have discussed this before, but I think we may have juuuust missed one another at UNC. I think you said that you were a TA in Dr. Ehrman's Intro to the New Testament course? I took that course during the second semester of my freshman year at UNC (2010) and to this day I maintain that it was the very best class I ever took at Carolina. I'll never forget it. Bart may be the smartest person I've ever met, and also the best teacher I've ever met.

I came to UNC from a really small, rural part of North Carolina and grew up in the Southern Baptist church- the twice on Sundays, once on Wednesdays kind of place. I just remember as a kid feeling so fearful of going to church because it was always "you're going to hellfire and brimstone." That kind of rhetoric is really toxic. Anyway, going to Bart's Intro to the New Testament class was truly one of those life-changing moments for me because it was the first time in my life where it was okay to question the Bible, question Christianity, question everything that I'd been told about God. I also think it's where I began to learn how to think critically and for myself.

These days, I would absolutely consider myself a person of faith but not of religiosity. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, born, crucified, and resurrected. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I try my very best to adhere to the words written in red. But I don't enjoy organized religion and in fact, I have not been a consistent church-goer since leaving home for college.

What MAGA Christians have done to poison the well of Christianity is nearly unforgivable. By MAGA Christians, I mean anyone who claims to be a Christian but also espouses anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-woman, hateful, judgmental rhetoric in the name of God.

Anyway, the funniest two things that I remember from Bart's class were the following:

1. You could always tell who the freshmen were in the class because they were the same ones trying to argue with both Bart and Gary the Pit Preacher.

2. On the very first day of class, the very first thing Bart said when he walked in and addressed our lecture hall of ~300 students was, "Okay, show of hands: who has read Harry Potter cover to cover?" *Every hand in the auditorium goes up* "Okay, who believes that the Bible is the literal Word of God?" *Most hands remain raised* "Okay, who has read the Bible cover to cover?" *Every single hand in the ~300 person lecture hall goes down. "You all mean to tell me that you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God Himself, and yet none of you has ever read the whole thing?!"
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Hey cford...yea, he used to do that to all his NT classes, ask them who's read the Bible and then go, "You think that GOD WROTE A BOOK AND YOU HAVEN'T READ IT?!?!?"...lol

I was there from 2000 to 2007...after which I moved back to California and started teaching at community colleges out here. So yea, I must have missed you by a few years. I'm super glad you liked the class, though, it sure was fun to TA every spring. I actually lectured in it once, "The Origins of Christian anti-Semitism," now there's a depressing topic.

I was thinking about your post, and you know, I think Christianity was corrupted way before MAGA, though their version of it is particularly odious. But Jesus himself, and the early church, were all about seeing God in everyone, regardless of class, race, etc., and then treating them with respect and love, as befits a child of God. I don't think anyone would have any problem with a religion like that...even dougdabroadcaster or kytihu would probably start going to churches like that. But human nature just effs all that up, and takes such a simple, clear, luminious and beautiful religion and mixes in boatloads of irrelevant bullshit.

IMO the black churches are closest in spirt today to the real gospel. They know what it's like to be despised and rejected by society, and they know the true worth of God's love. And they're all liberals...almost all of them. If I had a black church around me - I don't, not even close - I'd probably go to one of those.
 
I was actually talking to my parents about this the other day.

It is weird to me that people I grew up with, some at the same church, seem to have learned about a totally different Jesus than I did. The Jesus I grew up reading and learning about was the one who ministered to the lepers and the tax collectors and the prostitutes...and told us to take care of the poor and the outcast. And that correlates with my political beliefs because what I believe is important is taking care of each other. Most importantly, the story of the religious leaders questioning Jesus and asking what is the greatest commandment.

And the answer is: He [Jesus] said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I distinctly remember one of the pastors of my church growing up who explained that the actual translation of “a second is LIKE it” means “equally important to it.” Meaning loving your neighbor as yourself is equally important to loving God.

Agree with the OP that the vitally important mission of Christianity is to care for humanity. And so much of that message has been warped in the name of power. Basically to hold power and keep “others” down.

I also distinctly remember Rev Dr Barber’s address at the 2016 DNC and how much that message touched me and fortified my beliefs, as what he said enunciated much more clearly than I could what I feel is important. We have a mission on this earth, and more specifically in this country, to treat each other with compassion and love. And that really bleeds into politics in so many ways.

 
One of the greatest impacts I’ve felt personally from the MAGA movement (although it started well before MAGA) is that I don’t really want to be associated with Christianity anymore. I believe very much in Christ’s teachings, but I don’t see any of it in practice from those who most loudly proclaim to be His followers.
 
Wheels81 said:
One of the greatest impacts I’ve felt personally from the MAGA movement (although it started well before MAGA) is that I don’t really want to be associated with Christianity anymore. I believe very much in Christ’s teachings, but I don’t see any of it in practice from those who most loudly proclaim to be His followers.
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This is exactly where I've found myself for many years. I'm drifting further and further from any sort of organized religion mostly due to the intolerance by so many evangelicals.

It's a really sad reality that I feel is pushing so many away from Christianity altogether.
 
jharmon284 said:
This is exactly where I've found myself for many years. I'm drifting further and further from any sort of organized religion mostly due to the intolerance by so many evangelicals.

It's a really sad reality that I feel is pushing so many away from Christianity altogether.
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I get this...but if good people like you and me don't stand up for our religion and take it back - or at least stand up for its core principles - then it's going to be entirely overrun by the nitwits and charlatans.
 
Add me to the list. Been a part of moderate Baptist churches all my life and have voted on both sides of the aisle due in part to my faith over the years. However, theological education (MDiv from WFU), 9 years in congregational ministry, and 7 more in the nonprofit sector have evolved my faith in a way that makes MAGA Christianity completely foreign to me. My advisor at Wake Div was Dr. James Dunn who headed up the Baptist Joint Committee for a number for years. He would be turning over in his grave at where we are today.
 
fourheels said:
Add me to the list. Been a part of moderate Baptist churches all my life and have voted on both sides of the aisle due in part to my faith over the years. However, theological education (MDiv from WFU), 9 years in congregational ministry, and 7 more in the nonprofit sector have evolved my faith in a way that makes MAGA Christianity completely foreign to me. My advisor at Wake Div was Dr. James Dunn who headed up the Baptist Joint Committee for a number for years. He would be turning over in his grave at where we are today.
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James DG Dunn? No, that's can't be. Can it?

IF that's who you're referring to, he's one of my favorite scholars. (If not, then I hope your James Dunn was pretty good too :)
 
I know very few Conservatives that are real Christians. Pretty much every one I know is fake.
 
So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.
 
TarSpiel said:
So, this is something I think about a lot. I grew up in a conservative evangelical household in a conservative town, and fell in love with Jesus at a really early age. I entrusted my life to the Lord when I was in elementary school, and never ever forgot my surrender to His will. To this day, it is the central reality of my life.

As I grew and developed, I lost a lot of the Christian dogma that those around me told me I needed to believe in. Things like the inerrancy of scripture, the existence of hell, and the numinous divine approbation that suffused American and Western history. I learned that Jews also believed that God is Love, and so did Muslims. That Buddhist meditation merged with the Tao te Ching can make eating a spoonful of Cheeri-Os a divine epiphany, even without marijuana. That ethics wasn't a religious issue, it was a survival one. That religion could bring a black person and a white one together under one roof, and might in fact have developed specifically for that sort of reason, to unite tribes under one banner.

Anyway, I retained my love of Jesus and his gospel, and my trust in God's will, even while I lost a lot of standard Christian dogma. Then I went to UNC and became Bart Ehrman's grad student for 6 or 7 years, and really deepened my knowledge of the Bible - old and new - and the cultural and historical contexts that produced it. Bart was and is a pretty strongly atheist-leaning agnostic, and I'm a pretty strongly theist-leaning agnostic, but we got along famously, and never really discussed theology at all anyway. He's wicked smart, and has one of my favorite senses of humor I've ever come across. He's also in his own way extremely humble, and a genuine spiritual seeker. I just feel extremely blessed to have gotten to meet him and know him, and have him be my teacher in so many ways, on so many topics.

All that intellectual study really rammed home for me the major defining point not only of Jesus and Christianity, but also of the Judaism that produced it. And that is a deep, abiding, and selfless commitment to the physical, emotional and spiritual well being of five classes of people: the poor, the sick, foster kids, elderly women living alone, and immigrants. Those categories of people are mentioned all over in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments, and are the ground bass for the entire Biblical tradition: make sure everyone is taken care of, and don't exclude anyone ever.

The modern American republican party perverts this gospel into a "Christianity" that is about abortion (not in the Bible), homosexuality (hardly in the Bible), or immigration (in the Bible, but as an injunction to welcome immigrants and provide for them). I don't believe in Satan or dark powers, but it's absolutely true that Christianity has been corrupted into a kind of American nationalism that would have been bewildering not only to Jesus, but also to the majority of Christian theologians until about 1500.

And money? Donald Trump wants to make us all rich? If there's one teaching that runs all throughout Jesus' ministry, it's that wealth is neutral at best, but most often actively spiritually destructive.

I don't mind atheists, because at least they're honest. MAGA "Christians" though? Lord help us.

Donald Trump and MAGA are an active cancer on my religion. I know there are a lot of Christians who feel the same way. Maybe not the majority, but a lot.
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I am a huge fan of Bart Ehrman. I have 12 of his books sitting on my bookshelf and fianally was able to participate in one of his very popular seminars a few years ago on the topic of "Heaven and Hell"
 
Grew up in a Southern Baptist congregation and atmosphere. My Deddy seemed to always be a Deacon. We went to not only our revival but those in other churches throughout the summer. Same sort of thing with Homecoming and Dinner on the Grounds at churches that family was historically affiliated with. I taught my own peer group Sunday School class beginning at 12 years old and when in high school I often gave youth sermons of 10 minutes during Preaching.

Clearly I was immersed in a church environment -- mainly Baptist but there were Methodists closeby too. I still try and live by the lessons that I learned but long ago the Southern Baptist Convention repelled me. I taught for 15 years at a Quaker School where I learned a great deal that was admirable about that belief system. I've also worked with thoughtful, progressive Christians on many occasions on justice issues. Recently I have done some work with a Presbyterian congregation that has a sister church in Central America.

I do not see a kind of Christianity among MAGA adherents with which I can identify. I question their thinking.

What I see on this thread is a major reason that the American Right desperately does not want critical thinking taught in schools.
 
HandsonFire said:
So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.
Click to expand...
You won’t get any hate. This line was key: “I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs.”
 
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