Thread for non-MAGA Christians

[05C40]

No, not that James Dunn. This one:

James M. Dunn

bjconline.org

Four Heels, did you every have an opportunity to interact with Edwin Luther Copeland? I was a great admirer of his. Not a big enough admirer to get off my rear end and actually try to do something, but big enough to recognize the real thing when I saw it. He eventually got the message he was no longer welcome at SBC churches and spent his last years attending Pullen Park Baptist in Raleigh. Back in the day, I convinced Rev. W. W. Finlator to come speak to a student group (mostly made up of conservative male science majors) about the role of religion in modern society. That was fun.

 

[fourheels]

Four Heels, did you every have an opportunity to interact with Edwin Luther Copeland? I was a great admirer of his. Not a big enough admirer to get off my rear end and actually try to do something, but big enough to recognize the real thing when I saw it. He eventually got the message he was no longer welcome at SBC churches and spent his last years attending Pullen Park Baptist in Raleigh. Back in the day, I convinced Rev. W. W. Finlator to come speak to a student group (mostly made up of conservative male science majors) about the role of religion in modern society. That was fun.

I did not. However, I am familiar with him. Also I have at least a couple of old friends and div school classmates who served on staff at Pullen at various points over the last 20+ years.

 

[TarSpiel]

So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.

I mean yea, I'd disagree with you about a few things, but hopefully we could talk about them and maybe I could change your mind, or vice versa.

But you are coming at this in good faith, which is evident in every line you write, so I totally respect that.

 

[TarSpiel]

No, not that James Dunn. This one:

James M. Dunn

bjconline.org

Yea, I didn't think it could possibly be James dg dunn, who is I think an Anglican. But your dunn sounds pretty awesome too

 

[HeelInTheOzarks]

So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.

you shouldn’t get hate for this…the separation of church and state is the important part. For gay marriage in particular, if a specific church does not want to perform these marriages because it is inconsistent with their belief system, that’s one thing. But trying to make it illegal under the state for anyone, now you are trying to impose upon people your beliefs when they should have rights as an American that make them free from your control.

There are many things I would not personally do as I live my own life fairly conservatively. My problem is when people want to subject everyone to their belief system.

 

[fourheels]

Yea, I didn't think it could possibly be James dg dunn, who is I think an Anglican. But your dunn sounds pretty awesome too

He was one of a kind and is deeply missed! Melissa Rogers who served under both Obama and Biden as the head of Faith-Based and Community Partnerships co-taught one the classes I took with him at Wake. There were letters from both Jimmy Carter and President Obama read at his funeral.

Wake Div was a fantastic experience for me. It was started in large part by moderate/liberal Baptist theologians run out of Southern Seminary in Louisville (mainly Bill Leonard and Frank Tupper). By the time I got to Wake, it had become even more ecumenical. I had classes with people from a variety of Christian backgrounds, other religious backgrounds including Jewish and Muslim, as well as numerous LGBTQ students including at least two undergoing transitioning.

One of the holiest experiences I've ever had in my life was taking communion at Metropolitan Community Church in New York City as part of an urban ministry immersion class. The feeling of Christian love and acceptance was palpable in that setting in a way I've never experienced anywhere else. I had already had my own religious deconstructing experience so Wake wound up being a great place for me to rebuild my Christian Theology in an authentic way that fit my worldview and personal religious experience.

 

[Batt Boy]

Grew up in a Southern Baptist congregation and atmosphere. My Deddy seemed to always be a Deacon. We went to not only our revival but those in other churches throughout the summer. Same sort of thing with Homecoming and Dinner on the Grounds at churches that family was historically affiliated with. I taught my own peer group Sunday School class beginning at 12 years old and when in high school I often gave youth sermons of 10 minutes during Preaching.

Clearly I was immersed in a church environment -- mainly Baptist but there were Methodists closeby too. I still try and live by the lessons that I learned but long ago the Southern Baptist Convention repelled me. I taught for 15 years at a Quaker School where I learned a great deal that was admirable about that belief system. I've also worked with thoughtful, progressive Christians on many occasions on justice issues. Recently I have done some work with a Presbyterian congregation that has a sister church in Central America.

I do not see a kind of Christianity among MAGA adherents with which I can identify. I question their thinking.

What I see on this thread is a major reason that the American Right desperately does not want critical thinking taught in schools.

I too have done work with a PCUSA church who does a lot of work in Guatemala. Agree that this thread reveals much of what the MAGA right hates.

 

[JD Heel]

So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.

No hate here. I feel like this was me maybe 15-20 years ago. I've always considered myself a compassionate person, but growing up, I couldn't reconcile that with my personal beliefs that abortion and homosexuality were wrong.

Since then, I've done a complete 180. I not only do not believe homosexuality is wrong, but I believe it's something to be celebrated just like heterosexual love is celebrated. God is love, and I personally see more of God in a committed homosexual relationship than in those that speak out against it. It's that simple. As time has gone on, my personal "icky" feelings about homosexuality have dissipated, and I realize now it was my own prejudices and outside pressures that contributed to it. It wasn't anything from God.

As for sin, if the church isn't focused on rooting out the sins of divorce, vanity and the love of money - which are some of Jesus's critical teachings - then I'm not going to focus on other people's sin. I've got the plank in my own eye to worry about. I do think it's rich that Trump is now the personal savior of many so-called Christians, but he is the exact model of everything Jesus speaks out against. It's why when anyone tries to bring up the Bible but supports Trump, I can't help but tune them out. I can't take their opinion on Christianity seriously if they cannot see the bad fruit that is so clearly laid out for them (by the words of Jesus himself).

 

[4heels4evr]

for the law lovers as described by Jesus:
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

 

[Batt Boy]

I'd like for Don or others to help me with John 14:6 so that I can understand it better in context. It's used as one of the clobber verses and I think it's out of context. I don't even really like John at all compared to the other 3 Gospels. I know Erhman doesn't care for it either. Anyway, anything that can help me with a more progressive reading and understanding would be welcome. I just don't like or believe the verse.

 

[uncsig]

Have any of you read Tim Alberta's book The Kingdom, the Power and Glory?

I recently did and thought he did a really nice job of exploring this very topic.

Amazon.com

Have not read, but have seen him interviewed on a number of shows--probably around the time the book was coming out. Very interesting and compelling stuff.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

So I don’t have a lot of time this morning but I’ll chime in. I’m a pretty conservative Christian , believe Jesus is the Som of God, lived on earth, died on the Cross and was Resurrected. He is the only way to heaven. I believe abortion to be a sin, also believe homosexuality to be a sin (yeah I’m expecting lots of ridicule for this) so I have some pretty unpopular beliefs.

However where I differ from Maga and maybe a lot of Conservatives you know is these are my religious beliefs. I think it’s pretty clear our founding fathers advocated for a separation is church and state and they got it. So I believe that people have the right to be married if they are gay interracial whatever. I can sum it up with what I’ve said on here before , I don’t want to force you to live by my beliefs, and I don’t want you to force me to live to yours.
I am disgusted by MAGA and really any form of Christianity that is tied to politics. Politics are flawed and human, not righteous by any means, and to tie Jesus to either party is a grave mistake.
And I vote straight Democrat in a total rejection of all things MAGA.

Ducks for the hate.

I cannot hate somebody for coming to the conclusion that abortion and/or homosexuality are a sin. I disagree with you, but I can also easily see the path one could take to come to that conclusion. So long as you believe that it is wrong to force your beliefs on others, we are good.

There is room for reasonable disagreement on these topics... even though most people struggle to disagree reasonably about them.

With regards to your opinion that homosexuality is a sin, I would ask you to think carefully about how your opinion can impact others. A LOT of LGBTQ children wind up committing suicide because they grow up in small communities where all they are ever told is that they way they were born is a sin... and there is something wrong with them for being born that way.

Even if you truly believe it is a sin, I'd ask you to think long and hard about the impact your words could have on a child in your community struggling to reconcile who they are with the beliefs of the community they were born into.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

One of the greatest impacts I’ve felt personally from the MAGA movement (although it started well before MAGA) is that I don’t really want to be associated with Christianity anymore. I believe very much in Christ’s teachings, but I don’t see any of it in practice from those who most loudly proclaim to be His followers.

TarSpiel and I have discussed this before, but I find it unforgiveable that Christians do not speak out against the hate that has overtaken and perverted much of Christianity. From my POV it's hard not to hold this against Christianity itself, and see the entirety of the religion as a toxic thing for society.

I've never been Christian (or any religion). My family has had bad experiences with religion going back generations on both sides of my family, so I was brought up without any religion whatsoever. We just didn't talk about it... except for having extremists (usually Christian, but not exclusively) be the butt of most jokes in our family.

So when I hear other profess how important their religion is to them... it's just completely mindboggling to me that they do not strike out against the people perverting Christianity for political purposes. They do not call them out publicly and shout them down.

I've always assumed that if I was passionately Christian and somebody was toxifying the thing I cared most about in this world... I'd be incapable of sitting on my hands and just quietly shaking my head in disagreement... which is what I feel most true Christians do.

 

[fourheels]

I'd like for Don or others to help me with John 14:6 so that I can understand it better in context. It's used as one of the clobber verses and I think it's out of context. I don't even really like John at all compared to the other 3 Gospels. I know Erhman doesn't care for it either. Anyway, anything that can help me with a more progressive reading and understanding would be welcome. I just don't like or believe the verse.

Personally, instead of the narrow way that it's often interpreted, I believe that verse can illustrate the breadth of God's grace and mercy and that Jesus advocates for anyone of any background, anywhere in the world (or universe for that matter) who seeks and loves God and loves their neighbor even if they don't know anything at all about Jesus. Anyone can follow Micah 6:8 (do justice, love kindness, walk humbly with God) or care for the least of these (Matthew 25: 35-40) without even knowing they are doing so. If no one is truly worthy of salvation on their own, then ultimately it's all up to God anyway isn't it?

 

[HandsonFire]

I cannot hate somebody for coming to the conclusion that abortion and/or homosexuality are a sin. I disagree with you, but I can also easily see the path one could take to come to that conclusion. So long as you believe that it is wrong to force your beliefs on others, we are good.

There is room for reasonable disagreement on these topics... even though most people struggle to disagree reasonably about them.

With regards to your opinion that homosexuality is a sin, I would ask you to think carefully about how your opinion can impact others. A LOT of LGBTQ children wind up committing suicide because they grow up in small communities where all they are ever told is that they way they were born is a sin... and there is something wrong with them for being born that way.

Even if you truly believe it is a sin, I'd ask you to think long and hard about the impact your words could have on a child in your community struggling to reconcile who they are with the beliefs of the community they were born into.

I’m with you 100%. This is a particularly hard one for me, I have 3 family members that are close relations who are gay so it honestly tears me apart too. And im aware of the suicide risk. Spiritually for me it’s a mess, but I got a lot of planks and agree with some others ,why for ma the church in The US focus so hard on these.
My personal opinion is because it’s easy to point at homosexuals and people who have abortions as doomed or whatever. It takes no conviction, no sacrifice, nothing and yet it’s almost like you get a little Christian badge for hating those 2 things. Yet these same people are cheating on their wives , full of greed and greed by pride, and of course malice and see no problem.
And finally those 2 things are easy to hate until they come knocking on your door.

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

I’m with you 100%. This is a particularly hard one for me, I have 3 family members that are close relations who are gay so it honestly tears me apart too. And im aware of the suicide risk. Spiritually for me it’s a mess, but I got a lot of planks and agree with some others ,why for ma the church in The US focus so hard on these.
My personal opinion is because it’s easy to point at homosexuals and people who have abortions as doomed or whatever. It takes no conviction, no sacrifice, nothing and yet it’s almost like you get a little Christian badge for hating those 2 things. Yet these same people are cheating on their wives , full of greed and greed by pride, and of course malice and see no problem.
And finally those 2 things are easy to hate until they come knocking on your door.

Yeah, I have a huge issue with the hypocrisy of those who denounce homosexuals as evil. More often than not, the loudest voices are those who are either closeted homosexuals themselves... or those with more socially acceptable vices within their community.

IMO, a huge percentage of the anti-homosexuality in the US comes down to the "ick factor". Because growing up we were taught to hate it, mock it, treat it as a way to humiliate people by simply associating them with homosexuality ("You/that is so gay!!!").

We were taught to have an almost phobic reaction to anything which might cause our friends/ peers to even associate us with homosexuality. This fear that we might somehow be seen as gay ourselves if we don't 100% reject it... drives a lot people's opinions on the topic as they get older.

It's insidious how things driven into our heads as kids just kinda stick with us as we get older, shaping our opinions wihtout us realizing it. Think of all the things people could call you where you'd just roll your eyes and laugh at them... but somebody calls you gay, for whatever reason you are just compelled to set the record straight.

Who amongst us has not given this speech: "First off, I'm not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with it... I have friends/ family members who are gay... I have no problem with people being gay. I just don't happen to be gay."

 

[mpaer]

It's insidious how things driven into our heads as kids just kinda stick with us as we get older, shaping our opinions wihtout us realizing it. Think of all the things people could call you where you'd just roll your eyes and laugh at them... but somebody calls you gay, for whatever reason you are just compelled to set the record straight.

On related note Almost all sexual abusers were sexually abused as Children

 

[05C40]

Personally, instead of the narrow way that it's often interpreted, I believe that verse can illustrate the breadth of God's grace and mercy and that Jesus advocates for anyone of any background, anywhere in the world (or universe for that matter) who seeks and loves God and loves their neighbor even if they don't know anything at all about Jesus. Anyone can follow Micah 6:8 (do justice, love kindness, walk humbly with God) or care for the least of these (Matthew 25: 35-40) without even knowing they are doing so. If no one is truly worthy of salvation on their own, then ultimately it's all up to God anyway isn't it?

Sounds sort of like a quote from Billy Graham, "I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost – were going to hell – if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. – I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God – through nature, for instance – and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying 'yes' to God."

 

[superrific]

So, this is something I think about a lot. I grew up in a conservative evangelical household in a conservative town, and fell in love with Jesus at a really early age. I entrusted my life to the Lord when I was in elementary school, and never ever forgot my surrender to His will. To this day, it is the central reality of my life.

As I grew and developed, I lost a lot of the Christian dogma that those around me told me I needed to believe in. Things like the inerrancy of scripture, the existence of hell, and the numinous divine approbation that suffused American and Western history. I learned that Jews also believed that God is Love, and so did Muslims. That Buddhist meditation merged with the Tao te Ching can make eating a spoonful of Cheeri-Os a divine epiphany, even without marijuana. That ethics wasn't a religious issue, it was a survival one. That religion could bring a black person and a white one together under one roof, and might in fact have developed specifically for that sort of reason, to unite tribes under one banner.

Anyway, I retained my love of Jesus and his gospel, and my trust in God's will, even while I lost a lot of standard Christian dogma. Then I went to UNC and became Bart Ehrman's grad student for 6 or 7 years, and really deepened my knowledge of the Bible - old and new - and the cultural and historical contexts that produced it. Bart was and is a pretty strongly atheist-leaning agnostic, and I'm a pretty strongly theist-leaning agnostic, but we got along famously, and never really discussed theology at all anyway. He's wicked smart, and has one of my favorite senses of humor I've ever come across. He's also in his own way extremely humble, and a genuine spiritual seeker. I just feel extremely blessed to have gotten to meet him and know him, and have him be my teacher in so many ways, on so many topics.

All that intellectual study really rammed home for me the major defining point not only of Jesus and Christianity, but also of the Judaism that produced it. And that is a deep, abiding, and selfless commitment to the physical, emotional and spiritual well being of five classes of people: the poor, the sick, foster kids, elderly women living alone, and immigrants. Those categories of people are mentioned all over in the Bible, in the Old and New Testaments, and are the ground bass for the entire Biblical tradition: make sure everyone is taken care of, and don't exclude anyone ever.

The modern American republican party perverts this gospel into a "Christianity" that is about abortion (not in the Bible), homosexuality (hardly in the Bible), or immigration (in the Bible, but as an injunction to welcome immigrants and provide for them). I don't believe in Satan or dark powers, but it's absolutely true that Christianity has been corrupted into a kind of American nationalism that would have been bewildering not only to Jesus, but also to the majority of Christian theologians until about 1500.

And money? Donald Trump wants to make us all rich? If there's one teaching that runs all throughout Jesus' ministry, it's that wealth is neutral at best, but most often actively spiritually destructive.

I don't mind atheists, because at least they're honest. MAGA "Christians" though? Lord help us.

Donald Trump and MAGA are an active cancer on my religion. I know there are a lot of Christians who feel the same way. Maybe not the majority, but a lot.

This is a great thread, btw. Also, I didn't know your teaching degree was in religious studies. You've always come across as quite knowledgeable about world religions, but I don't think I appreciated the angle you were coming from.

I really like the formulation of "the emotional and spiritual well-being of five classes of people."

 

[Centerpiece]

I sing in the Episcopal Church choir loft every Sunday (except summers months, choir is on sabbatical) but I'm very much agnostic in a lot of ways. One Priest we had some time ago made it clear to me that a "healthy sense of agnosticism is not a bad thing". Questioning is not a bad thing. Episcopalians are very discerning and question a lot of things, even though they are liturgically inclined. To that I'll only add what I wrote recently to a friend:

"Not long ago I had a dog named Amos. He lived with us for 15 years. Best damn dog in the entire World. The best dog that ever was or will be. He was a rescue from the local shelter, part Border Collie, part Husky. Beautiful coat of gray with white hair on his breast and feet. I loved that dog like no other. Still do. He loved everybody and every thing. People, other dogs, cats, animals and children. Faithful to me and the family. His sense of Justice and fairness to all other creatures was unsurpassed. He was as righteous as any human being I’ve ever met or known about. I only wish I could be as good of a human being as Amos was a dog. We should all be more like Amos."