Trump: "We will take over Gaza and move all Palestinians out"

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ZZLPHeels said:
Yeah yeah, we get it. You are deflecting because you know that you don't have an argument.
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lmao.

i wasn't really making an "argument," just pointing out how laughable and cruel your position on Palestinian lives is but regardless, you quite clearly aren't in a position to criticize anyone else's arguments, Mr. It All Started on 10/7.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
but the bottom line and indisputable truth is that without 10/7, the invasion of Gaza simply doesn't happen.
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I've tried to engage with you reasonably, but your position here is becoming exceedingly frustrating. You can't be simultaneously "just saying that the assault doesn't happen without 10/7" and also be drawing the inferences that you are. It sure sounds like you're absolving Israel when you tell us that our criticisms are just "victim blaming." It sure seems as though you're trying to halt the causal chain; that you're blaming the electrical spark for the whole warehouse fire instead of looking at the totality of circumstances.

You can't have it both ways. Yes, obviously 10/8 doesn't happen without 10/7 -- not in that direct form. But if that's your only point, then everything that happened after 10/8 is also on Israel. And if you're trying to say that the buildup to 10/7 is irrelevant, then you are saying something completely different than what you purport to be saying.
 
4thgenheel said:
lmao.

i wasn't really making an "argument," just pointing out how laughable and cruel your position on Palestinian lives is but regardless, you quite clearly aren't in a position to criticize anyone else's arguments, Mr. It All Started on 10/7.
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Never said it all started on 10/7. Simply stated that the invasion of Gaza wouldn't have happened without 10/7, which is indisputable unless you are incredibly misinformed.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
Sorry Rai, sounds like "victim blaming" to me. We can go back and forth about Israel's conduct in the war, but the bottom line and indisputable truth is that without 10/7, the invasion of Gaza simply doesn't happen.
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10/7 doesn't happen without all the things that happened leading up to it. There are tons of events that built up to it.
 
superrific said:
I've tried to engage with you reasonably, but your position here is becoming exceedingly frustrating. You can't be simultaneously "just saying that the assault doesn't happen without 10/7" and also be drawing the inferences that you are. It sure sounds like you're absolving Israel when you tell us that our criticisms are just "victim blaming." It sure seems as though you're trying to halt the causal chain; that you're blaming the electrical spark for the whole warehouse fire instead of looking at the totality of circumstances.

You can't have it both ways. Yes, obviously 10/8 doesn't happen without 10/7 -- not in that direct form. But if that's your only point, then everything that happened after 10/8 is also on Israel. And if you're trying to say that the buildup to 10/7 is irrelevant, then you are saying something completely different than what you purport to be saying.
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We're not debating the entirety of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Obviously that has gone on for generations and cannot be tied to any one date. However, the massive escalation that occurred starting on 10/7 and has persisted until today would not have been possible without 10/7. That's not saying that everything was hunky-dory prior to 10/7. It wasn't. Palestinians were being killed by Israelis and thousands of missiles were being launched at Israel by Palestinians. However, that uneasy status quo would not have escalated into full-scale urban warfare with Gaza being largely destroyed without the major terror attack that happened on 10/7. The things that are happening today are more of a direct result of that date than anything else.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
Never said it all started on 10/7. Simply stated that the invasion of Gaza wouldn't have happened without 10/7, which is indisputable unless you are incredibly misinformed.
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and 10/7 wouldn't have happened without decades of Israelis raping and pillaging and murdering Palestinian people.
 
RaiGuy said:
10/7 doesn't happen without all the things that happened leading up to it. There are tons of events that built up to it.
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10/7 didn't have to happen at all. Hamas decided to FAFO. Unfortunately, the Palestinian civilians caught in the crossfire are also squarely in the "FO" stage.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
Way to blame the victims. As I said earlier, FAFO. We're in year 2 of FO, thanks to Hamas.
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10/7 was horrific but the people being murdered, raped, pillaged and colonized on a massive scale for decades by Israel are the primary victims here.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
However, that uneasy status quo would not have escalated into full-scale urban warfare with Gaza being largely destroyed without the major terror attack that happened on 10/7. The things that are happening today are more of a direct result of that date than anything else.
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You don't know that. We had an uneasy status quo in America that was working a lot better for Americans than the status quo was working for Gazans. And then Americans, heads filled with propaganda and hate, decided that it was time to blow it all up. For no reason.

The radical settlers have been gaining power in Israel for quite a while, and they are escalationists. They try to provoke conflict so they can justify what is essentially armed robbery and baby apartheid. There is no reason to believe that everything would be just OK as the settlers took over the government.
 


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
 
nycfan said:


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
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We helped Germany and Japan clear the debris without trying to take ownership of the land.

Marco Rubio is scum. I've known it all along. And there was no $50B plan. These fuckers. There was a mention of a $50B fund, with zero details except the US wasn't going to be putting up the money (it would be private "investors") so it was of course all bullshit all the time.
 
4thgenheel said:
repeatedly referring to Israel as "the victims" in this situation is one of the more insane things i've seen posted on this board lately, congrats.
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Israelis were the victims on 10/7, which is what we have been discussing. Palestinian civilians have been the victims of the war in Gaza. It isn't either/or, despite your best efforts to frame it as such.
 
nycfan said:


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
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So sick of this same cycle. "Well obviously he didn't mean 'X', what he was really saying is 'Y'. You can't really take it literally when he said 'X'". Move forward and he does 'X'. Which is exactly what he said.
 
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ZZLPHeels said:
I can't help if my statements are not what other people want them to be.
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No, but it's not OK for you to project your framing and expect everyone to follow it. Saying that "we're only talking about 10/7" is literally begging the question of what you are really discussing. You seem to be in the minority here in thinking that 10/7 can be analyzed in isolation.

I mean, I've agreed with you that 10/7 was an ignition event. In fact, I think I said that was indisputable. And nobody has really disagreed with that, probably because it's indisputable. It's all the other stuff you're arguing but are claiming not to be that is raising hackles.

For instance, calling Israelis victims. Obviously the people killed or injured or taken hostage were indeed victims. But that's not quite the same thing as saying *Israel* is a victim, nor the Israeli public victims. And if we blame Israel for massively overreacting, we're not blaming the actual victims (who are mostly dead). It cannot be plausibly argued that *Israel* was the victim, except in the sense that a mugger who gets beaten up after trying to rob someone at gunpoint is a victim.

My own view is that there are victims all over. Many Israelis are and have been victims. Palestinians have been victims. The people, generally speaking, have been victims of geopolitical struggle that affects their lives but over which they have little control. I think we can agree on that. I also don't know if further discussion is needed on this topic. Isn't that really your point also?
 
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