Trump: "We will take over Gaza and move all Palestinians out"

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ZZLPHeels said:
However, that uneasy status quo would not have escalated into full-scale urban warfare with Gaza being largely destroyed without the major terror attack that happened on 10/7. The things that are happening today are more of a direct result of that date than anything else.
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You don't know that. We had an uneasy status quo in America that was working a lot better for Americans than the status quo was working for Gazans. And then Americans, heads filled with propaganda and hate, decided that it was time to blow it all up. For no reason.

The radical settlers have been gaining power in Israel for quite a while, and they are escalationists. They try to provoke conflict so they can justify what is essentially armed robbery and baby apartheid. There is no reason to believe that everything would be just OK as the settlers took over the government.
 


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
 
nycfan said:


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
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We helped Germany and Japan clear the debris without trying to take ownership of the land.

Marco Rubio is scum. I've known it all along. And there was no $50B plan. These fuckers. There was a mention of a $50B fund, with zero details except the US wasn't going to be putting up the money (it would be private "investors") so it was of course all bullshit all the time.
 
4thgenheel said:
repeatedly referring to Israel as "the victims" in this situation is one of the more insane things i've seen posted on this board lately, congrats.
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Israelis were the victims on 10/7, which is what we have been discussing. Palestinian civilians have been the victims of the war in Gaza. It isn't either/or, despite your best efforts to frame it as such.
 
superrific said:
That's what you are discussing. That's not necessarily what "we" were discussing. In fact, most of the posters here take issue with that framing.
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I can't help if my statements are not what other people want them to be.
 
nycfan said:


“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”
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So sick of this same cycle. "Well obviously he didn't mean 'X', what he was really saying is 'Y'. You can't really take it literally when he said 'X'". Move forward and he does 'X'. Which is exactly what he said.
 
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ZZLPHeels said:
I can't help if my statements are not what other people want them to be.
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No, but it's not OK for you to project your framing and expect everyone to follow it. Saying that "we're only talking about 10/7" is literally begging the question of what you are really discussing. You seem to be in the minority here in thinking that 10/7 can be analyzed in isolation.

I mean, I've agreed with you that 10/7 was an ignition event. In fact, I think I said that was indisputable. And nobody has really disagreed with that, probably because it's indisputable. It's all the other stuff you're arguing but are claiming not to be that is raising hackles.

For instance, calling Israelis victims. Obviously the people killed or injured or taken hostage were indeed victims. But that's not quite the same thing as saying *Israel* is a victim, nor the Israeli public victims. And if we blame Israel for massively overreacting, we're not blaming the actual victims (who are mostly dead). It cannot be plausibly argued that *Israel* was the victim, except in the sense that a mugger who gets beaten up after trying to rob someone at gunpoint is a victim.

My own view is that there are victims all over. Many Israelis are and have been victims. Palestinians have been victims. The people, generally speaking, have been victims of geopolitical struggle that affects their lives but over which they have little control. I think we can agree on that. I also don't know if further discussion is needed on this topic. Isn't that really your point also?
 
superrific said:
My own view is that there are victims all over. Many Israelis are and have been victims. Palestinians have been victims. The people, generally speaking, have been victims of geopolitical struggle that affects their lives but over which they have little control. I think we can agree on that. I also don't know if further discussion is needed on this topic. Isn't that really your point also?
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100%.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
I can't help if my statements are not what other people want them to be.
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Apparently, you also can’t help if your statements are not as intelligent as we want them to be.

Considering 10/7 in a vacuum is not a serious argument.

You’re dumb, or a troll, or both. More power and patience to the posters who are taking you seriously and trying to usher you toward some semblance of a reasonable argument.
 
RaiGuy said:
I'm having a hard time understanding why some people can't comprehend that this wasn't a random, isolated incident and they ignore the months and years leading up to this.
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Of course it was ignored. Ever wonder why? Ever wonder why the far right in Israel which has pretty much controlled Israel for the last 30 years doesn't actually do anything constructive to replace Hamas with a viable government which would kill Hamas?

The far right in Israel needs Hamas and Hamas needs Israel's far right. Without the other, each would not have a reason to exist and thus couldn't get power. That's the way extreme's operate.

Yes, there was a reason the lead up to 10-7 was ignored. Yes, there was a reason the tunnels were ignored for decades. Yes, a reason the aid to Hamas was ignored. And yes, Hamas knew Israel's far right would do what they did and bomb the hell out of the people. Didn't matter, because it was more important that Hamas had generations of future recruitment.

Both extreme's need war for power. Its that simple. No one can reasonably blame incompetence for all those yes answers.

And frankly, its kinda hard to fully blame the Palistinian people for their government. They are surrounded by bad actors including Israel's far right, who have every interest in making sure the Palistinians don't have a viable government.
 
This may have been posted at some point in this thread, but it’s a fantastic doc made by two Israelis and two Palestinians over the course of several years (and filming concluded in Oct 2023).

Despite being an Oscars contender, it currently has no US distribution deal, because the distributors are cowards. It'll be around eventually though, and it’s a must-see:

 
duluoz said:
Apparently, you also can’t help if your statements are not as intelligent as we want them to be.

Considering 10/7 in a vacuum is not a serious argument.

You’re dumb, or a troll, or both. More power and patience to the posters who are taking you seriously and trying to usher you toward some semblance of a reasonable argument.
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"10/8 wouldn't have happened without 10/7" is not a controversial argument, nor is it a hard one to grasp. The fact that you are having such a difficult time with it is much more of a testament to your shortcomings than it is to my own.
 
duluoz said:
You’re dumb, or a troll, or both. More power and patience to the posters who are taking you seriously and trying to usher you toward some semblance of a reasonable argument.
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I think you're making a mistake that I made, which is to confuse (implicitly perhaps) this poster with some others. I don't think he's a troll, and I don't think he's stupid.
 
duluoz said:
This may have been posted at some point in this thread, but it’s a fantastic doc made by two Israelis and two Palestinians over the course of several years (and filming concluded in Oct 2023).

Despite being an Oscars contender, it currently has no US distribution deal, because the distributors are cowards. It'll be around eventually though, and it’s a must-see:

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God, I can hardly watch videos of those ****ing settlers. It just makes my blood boil so bad.
 
superrific said:
All right. So what's the argument, then? What are we talking about? If we agree about who the bad guys are, and we agree about who the victims are, and we agree about the mechanisms of victimization, what is the dispute?
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I don't think you and I have one. Perhaps you should ask the other posters who are attacking me for stating noncontroversial opinions. When I made the original statement I had no idea it would generate such hostility from some.
 
336Heel said:
So sick of this came cycle. "Well obviously he didn't mean 'X', what he was really saying is 'Y'. You can't really take it literally when he said 'X'". Move forward and he does 'X'. Which is exactly what he said.
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But anyone who claims he will do X because he said he would do X is hysterical. But once he actually does X, you are a loser to complain because that is what he said he would do and what people elected him to do.
 
nycfan said:
But anyone who claims he will do X because he said he would do X is hysterical. But once he actually does X, you are a loser to complain because that is what he said he would do and what people elected him to do.
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There is one last part - I don't actually support him doing X, so even though I voted for him that absolves me of blame.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
Israelis were the victims on 10/7, which is what we have been discussing. Palestinian civilians have been the victims of the war in Gaza. It isn't either/or, despite your best efforts to frame it as such.
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i haven't made any efforts to frame it as an either/or.

your dishonesty is tiring.
 
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