Trump: "We will take over Gaza and move all Palestinians out"

[ZZLPHeels]

i haven't made any efforts to frame it as an either/or.

your dishonesty is tiring.

This you?

repeatedly referring to Israel as "the victims" in this situation is one of the more insane things i've seen posted on this board lately, congrats.

 

[superrific]

I don't think you and I have one. Perhaps you should ask the other posters who are attacking me for stating noncontroversial opinions. When I made the original statement I had no idea it would generate such hostility from some.

Well, I don't think it's so simple. I believe that you didn't anticipate the blowback, but it's also true that you could listen to some of the criticism a little bit more carefully and constructively as you can. For instance, here's something you wrote:

"10/7 started all of this. Without it, there would have been no major war in Gaza. Great job, Hamas."

OK, 10/7 didn't in fact start all of 'this." And given our discussion earlier, it appears that you agree. Which means that what you wrote was incorrect -- or perhaps imprecise. What is "this"? I try to avoid using the nominative forms of "this" precisely because they create so much confusion. I would say, "the particularly vicious Israeli response," or something like that. Does it require more words and create a long post? It does. Until recently, college grads weren't allergic to reading a couple of paragraphs. Precision and brevity rarely go hand in hand.

And it's also important to understand background assumptions. There are a lot of people who do in fact argue that 10/7 was the beginning of everything, that Palestinians are getting what they deserve, etc. That's a fact. They are here on the board and have been here. So when you argue something similar, if you're not precise, your views are going to get lumped together. That's how mass conversations work. It would help to be more cognizant of how your posts interact with the overall discourse.

[BTW, I think you probably should find a new screen name. There's one dominant "Z" name poster here, and he has something of a similar posting style to you, and because that poster is ubiquitous and frustrating, you're being confused.]

 

[4thgenheel]

This you?

i see that you didn't quote my post where i acknowledged the atrocity that occurred on 10/7 and called Palestinians the "primary victims" which acknowledges that there are indeed other victims.

the colonizers still aren't the larger victims in this situation despite that awful event.

 

[eternalheel]

I don't think you and I have one. Perhaps you should ask the other posters who are attacking me for stating noncontroversial opinions. When I made the original statement I had no idea it would generate such hostility from some.

Victim card.

 

[nycfan]

“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”

Wait wait wait



Which is it? Rubio said it was a generous offer for the U.S. to clean up the Gaza Strip and provide temporary housing to Palestinians in the meantime … and Caroline Leavitt said this:

x.com

x.com

 

[05C40]

God, I can hardly watch videos of those ****ing settlers. It just makes my blood boil so bad.

If you think it makes you mad now, just wait until some MAGA's comes along, kicks you out of your house at gun point, and starts living there. And when you call the police, the police arrest you and send you to a deportation camp.

 

[superrific]

Victim card.

Not fair.

 

[SnoopRob]

I think you're making a mistake that I made, which is to confuse (implicitly perhaps) this poster with some others. I don't think he's a troll, and I don't think he's stupid.

He's not stupid, he's just poorly, poorly informed on nearly every major issue, almost completely unwilling to examine his biases, and he repeatedly fails to learn when presented with information that contradicts his stance in a way that shows he doesn't really engage with said information.

He is a troll, as when you actively participate in a discussion with that kind of perspective you are trolling, albeit perhaps unintentionally.

 

[1moretimeagain]

“… the only thing that President Trump has done, very generously, in my view, is offer the United States’s willingness to step in, clear the debris, clean the place up … and in the meantime, the people living there, the people who call it home, will not be able to live there [while we clean up] that’s the offer that he has made. And it’s actually, he made a similar obviously we didn’t have a conflict at the time when in his first term he offered a $50 billion plan um to help Palestinians which was rejected by the Pa and obviously others. So in the interim obviously people are going to have to live somewhere while you are rebuilding …”

So much for all those DOGE savings.

 

[superrific]

He's not stupid, he's just poorly, poorly informed on nearly every major issue, almost completely unwilling to examine his biases, and he repeatedly fails to learn when presented with information that contradicts his stance in a way that shows he doesn't really engage with said information.

He is a troll, as when you actively participate in a discussion with that kind of perspective you are trolling, albeit perhaps unintentionally.

I think you might be confusing him with someone else. I had an argument with him and when I reassessed what happened there, I realized that I was being uncharitable toward him. The views I thought he had expressed, I actually didn't find much evidence of. What I thought he had said, he hadn't.

I think he would benefit from a new user name. I think this one is leading him to be smeared by association. I don't know. Maybe he's already changed his user name and is someone else and I don't know it.

 

[ChileG]

Wait wait wait



Which is it? Rubio said it was a generous offer for the U.S. to clean up the Gaza Strip and provide temporary housing to Palestinians in the meantime … and Caroline Leavitt said this:

x.com

x.com

They are literally making it up as they go along.

 

[1moretimeagain]

The cleanup committee needs to get together with one story.

 

[SnoopRob]

I think you might be confusing him with someone else.

Perhaps, but he's done little to "unconfuse" me with the posts I know are his.

I went back and checked, the other poster with a near identical name posted here for about 10 days a few months ago. I doubt anyone is really mistaking the two posters at this point.

And, if I'm correct, this poster has already come back to the board under a new username at least once in its existence.

 

[4thgenheel]

Perhaps, but he's done little to "unconfuse" me with the posts I know are his.

dude hopped in this thread earlier today to piggyback on calla's posts while pretending to be some sort of moderate and sensible observer with no horse in the race.

really all anyone needs to know.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Well, I don't think it's so simple. I believe that you didn't anticipate the blowback, but it's also true that you could listen to some of the criticism a little bit more carefully and constructively as you can. For instance, here's something you wrote:

"10/7 started all of this. Without it, there would have been no major war in Gaza. Great job, Hamas."

OK, 10/7 didn't in fact start all of 'this." And given our discussion earlier, it appears that you agree. Which means that what you wrote was incorrect -- or perhaps imprecise. What is "this"? I try to avoid using the nominative forms of "this" precisely because they create so much confusion. I would say, "the particularly vicious Israeli response," or something like that. Does it require more words and create a long post? It does. Until recently, college grads weren't allergic to reading a couple of paragraphs. Precision and brevity rarely go hand in hand.

And it's also important to understand background assumptions. There are a lot of people who do in fact argue that 10/7 was the beginning of everything, that Palestinians are getting what they deserve, etc. That's a fact. They are here on the board and have been here. So when you argue something similar, if you're not precise, your views are going to get lumped together. That's how mass conversations work. It would help to be more cognizant of how your posts interact with the overall discourse.

[BTW, I think you probably should find a new screen name. There's one dominant "Z" name poster here, and he has something of a similar posting style to you, and because that poster is ubiquitous and frustrating, you're being confused.]

You are right, I did not elaborate sufficiently in the post that you quoted. I can see how that remark could be misinterpreted, as it was a bit vague. I did elaborate further when pressed on that statement, though.

For clarification's sake, my position is that 10/7 was the event that started whatever you want to call the invasion of Gaza. Let's call it the Gaza War. Similar to how 12/7/41 was the event that caused the United States to officially enter World War II, and 9/11 was the catalyst for the Global War on Terror. That doesn't mean that there weren't hostilities simmering in the background...there absolutely were, just like there were prior to Pearl Harbor Day and prior to 9/11. However, the sheer magnitude of 10/7 meant that Israel would have to respond in a major way, and that it would be very hard for the United States not to support them in their response. Without 10/7, my belief is that things simply would have continued as they were, with rocket fire from Gaza and retaliatory strikes by Israel, but nothing to the scale of what we have seen over the past two years. So for that, I primarily blame Hamas. I think they overplayed their hand on 10/7, which is something that evidently even Hamas leadership believed.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Perhaps, but he's done little to "unconfuse" me with the posts I know are his.

I went back and checked, the other poster with a near identical name posted here for about 10 days a few months ago. I doubt anyone is really mistaking the two posters at this point.

And, if I'm correct, this poster has already come back to the board under a new username at least once in its existence.

I originally posted under the name ZZLPHeel. Before that, 2ManyBlueCups. I had to change usernames twice because the site would no longer let me access it under each name. I couldn't even visit the page to log out....it simply said website not available. The only way to view the page was to go into incognito mode on my browser and view as a guest. Both times I conferred with Rock who stated that I was not banned and that he had no idea why these issues were occurring. After trial and error Rock and I agreed on creating a new profile, and *fingers crossed* it has been fine so far.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

dude hopped in this thread earlier today to piggyback on calla's posts while pretending to be some sort of moderate and sensible observer with no horse in the race.

really all anyone needs to know.

We all have horses in the race.

I think part of the problem is that people want me to say certain things because they believe they know my beliefs better than I do. Piggybacking calla does not mean I endorse all of his beliefs just like your piggybacking Rai doesn't mean that you think that the IDF intentionally murdered all of its own civilians on 10/7. It is possible to agree on some things and disagree on others.

 

[SnoopRob]

I originally posted under the name ZZLPHeel. Before that, 2ManyBlueCups. I had to change usernames twice because the site would no longer let me access it under each name. I couldn't even visit the page to log out....it simply said website not available. The only way to view the page was to go into incognito mode on my browser and view as a guest. Both times I conferred with Rock who stated that I was not banned and that he had no idea why these issues were occurring. After trial and error Rock and I agreed on creating a new profile, and *fingers crossed* it has been fine so far.

So you are the username that super thought you were being confused for?



Now, let's take it a step further...what was/were your username(s) on IC?

 

[superrific]

You are right, I did not elaborate sufficiently in the post that you quoted. I can see how that remark could be misinterpreted, as it was a bit vague. I did elaborate further when pressed on that statement, though.

For clarification's sake, my position is that 10/7 was the event that started whatever you want to call the invasion of Gaza. Let's call it the Gaza War. Similar to how 12/7/41 was the event that caused the United States to officially enter World War II, and 9/11 was the catalyst for the Global War on Terror. That doesn't mean that there weren't hostilities simmering in the background...there absolutely were, just like there were prior to Pearl Harbor Day and prior to 9/11. However, the sheer magnitude of 10/7 meant that Israel would have to respond in a major way, and that it would be very hard for the United States not to support them in their response. Without 10/7, my belief is that things simply would have continued as they were, with rocket fire from Gaza and retaliatory strikes by Israel, but nothing to the scale of what we have seen over the past two years. So for that, I primarily blame Hamas. I think they overplayed their hand on 10/7, which is something that evidently even Hamas leadership believed.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with you about any of those facts. The conclusion about "blaming Hamas" does not obviously follow from the above -- and to me it seems crazy to blame Hamas for the sheer destructiveness of the Israeli response -- but your statement now is that you blame Hamas. Fair, as an opinion.

Of course, the reason that Hamas launched the attack was because the status quo was unacceptable to them for many reasons. I'm never going to apologize for their choice of method -- I'm a Gandhi admirer after all -- but I think it's also callous to say "things would have continued as they were" as if that's an acceptable outcome.

 

[superrific]

So you are the username that super thought you were being confused for?

I think he's confused with ZenMode. That's who I was confusing him for -- or to be more specific, I was attributing in my mind some of Zen's statements to him.