U.S. Budget & OBBB | OCT 1 - Gov’t Shutdown Begins

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tarheel931 said:
I am so sick and tired of the Democratic Party. Chuck Schumer has got to be the biggest, spineless twat waffle. Trump basically dared them to do it. He knows when push comes to shove the Democrats will cave. Why the hell are they asking us not to give in when they continually keep taking it and then begging for more? It's hard to maintain any sort of will to fight when your elected officials just roll over and capitulate every damn time. I don't have the energy to give a shit when they clearly don't give a damn.
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All right. This is not the case. You can disagree with the decision -- and I do, provisionally -- but the idea that the Dems don't care is absurd. They have had multiple meetings this week, and by all accounts the meetings were heated.

Schumer is the majority leader, not some military general. If there are seven members who want to vote for the CR, what can he do? Fetterman already said he would.

I say that I provisionally disagree because I don't know the whole story. I think Schumer's story makes sense. My intuition is to emulate McConnell, as he was clearly an effective minority leader. But we also don't know what the Senators are hearing from people who are more informed as to the damage caused by the shutdown, the vulnerabilities of important Dem groups, what Vought has planned next, etc.

It's also true that there's a debt ceiling deadline coming up, and maybe Dems will stand strong there. And don't say, "yeah right" because the two situations are different. There are good reasons to cave on the CR and take up the fight for the debt ceiling.
 
Mundial said:
To be clear, just trying to understand Schumer's thinking.
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Yeah, I was expanding on your point. Here's my imaginative reconstruction of Schumer's thinking:

1. He doesn't have 43 no votes. There are at least seven senators who want to vote for the CR. So he's falling on his sword so that vulnerable Dems don't have to.

2. This is an asymmetrical fight and always has been. What if the House Republicans don't come back to pass a CR? What if they leave the government shut down? Elon's not going to shut down. The guys who are killing all public services are maybe going to be quite gleeful for Democrats' assistance.

3. There's a debt ceiling deadline that can be an opportunity for Dems to hold the line. That's a better fight because it's not asymmetric. The billionaires will suffer big time from a debt default.
 
tarheel931 said:
I am so sick and tired of the Democratic Party. Chuck Schumer has got to be the biggest, spineless twat waffle. Trump basically dared them to do it. He knows when push comes to shove the Democrats will cave. Why the hell are they asking us not to give in when they continually keep taking it and then begging for more? It's hard to maintain any sort of will to fight when your elected officials just roll over and capitulate every damn time. I don't have the energy to give a shit when they clearly don't give a damn.
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Not going to argue your points, but i know Elon was rooting for a shutdown so i am guessing they had something nasty cooked up if the Dems threw a spanner in the works. this might have been a lesser of two evils choice.
 
If I am following Schumer, then he is saying that a shutdown is worse because Trump/Musk can eliminate more federal workers? I thought the idea was to trade your votes to get things which means you can negotiate that problem away.
 
superrific said:
Not if the GOP is actually happy to shut it down and blame Dems.
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Exactly. If the federal courts were to shut down then I could see DOGE just continuing to run amok and firing people with no courts to stop them (Elon doesn't need money and could possibly pay his own staff). Some folks here say that judges would work for free but I am not sure about that, plus you would need other members of the court and staff, security etc. I am not an expert on this but that is what I think the Dems may have been thinking. As ST said lesser of two evils and the budget deadline being the real battle.
 
Like NO ONE in America knows what you’re referring to. Mike won this round admit it. DOGE and Immigration will be fully funded through September.
 
superrific said:
All right. This is not the case. You can disagree with the decision -- and I do, provisionally -- but the idea that the Dems don't care is absurd. They have had multiple meetings this week, and by all accounts the meetings were heated.

Schumer is the majority leader, not some military general. If there are seven members who want to vote for the CR, what can he do? Fetterman already said he would.

I say that I provisionally disagree because I don't know the whole story. I think Schumer's story makes sense. My intuition is to emulate McConnell, as he was clearly an effective minority leader. But we also don't know what the Senators are hearing from people who are more informed as to the damage caused by the shutdown, the vulnerabilities of important Dem groups, what Vought has planned next, etc.

It's also true that there's a debt ceiling deadline coming up, and maybe Dems will stand strong there. And don't say, "yeah right" because the two situations are different. There are good reasons to cave on the CR and take up the fight for the debt ceiling.
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I get it. I do. But don't stand up and tell us that the Democrats will not support cloture and then less than 24 hours capitulate. I'm pretty damn sure that whatever he thinks that Trump and Musk were going to do with a shutdown didn't magically appear less than 24 hours from the vote. Don't tell me one thing and then completely do something different. Make the argument to the American people and let us decide. Tell me the reasons why you think that a shutdown would be so much worse. The entire Democratic party seems to be in tatters. There is NO coherent strategy for dealing with the carnage that Trump and Musk are dealing out. I'm sick and tired of waking every day to the shit show that is this administration and feeling like my elected officials don't know what the hell they are doing. I'm a veteran who's utilizing the Pell Grant and my Gi Bill benefits to finish my degree and now I can't update my FAFSA application. My oldest and my wife and also the beneficiaries of a Pell Grant and we are worried about the future.
 
tarheel931 said:
I get it. I do. But don't stand up and tell us that the Democrats will not support cloture and then less than 24 hours capitulate. I'm pretty damn sure that whatever he thinks that Trump and Musk were going to do with a shutdown didn't magically appear less than 24 hours from the vote. Don't tell me one thing and then completely do something different. Make the argument to the American people and let us decide. Tell me the reasons why you think that a shutdown would be so much worse. The entire Democratic party seems to be in tatters. There is NO coherent strategy for dealing with the carnage that Trump and Musk are dealing out. I'm sick and tired of waking every day to the shit show that is this administration and feeling like my elected officials don't know what the hell they are doing. I'm a veteran who's utilizing the Pell Grant and my Gi Bill benefits to finish my degree and now I can't update my FAFSA application. My oldest and my wife and also the beneficiaries of a Pell Grant and we are worried about the future.
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I feel your pain, man. I do. And you're not wrong about the consistency in messaging. The whipsaw effect is real. But they have been communicating as to why they fear a shutdown, and if you don't like their explanations, I've provided some that are hopefully better and more clearly explained.

The main reason there's no coherent strategy is because a) our system was not designed to accommodate a president who is actively trying to hurt the United States, and b) the Republicans control everything right now. There's no strategy out there. It's like a #16 playing a #1 seed. You can have the best coach in the world, but what the fuck could Prairie View ever have done against Hans/Lawson?

I am worried about the future also. We all are. But "do something" is not a plan and it's not necessarily helpful.

The reason that I think the debt ceiling is the better fight is that it's something the billionaires in Trump's cabinet would be horrified to see, not to mention the rich GOPers in Congress. Think Dave McCormick wants to light his billions on fire in a total market collapse? Here, I think the problem is that the GOP is indifferent at best to the government staying open, which is why the Dems don't REALLY have any leverage.

The best thing you can do, in my opinion, is to tell everyone you know how Trump is fucking with you. Tell the MAGAs and the fence sitters. Give them a concrete example: because of the GOP, my college education is in danger. All I want is to work hard, get a degree, and provide for my family, and Trump is fucking that up. Put a human face on the carnage in the hopes that some of them will wake the fuck up.
 


“… The New York lawmaker and nine other members of the Democratic caucus broke with most of their party on a procedural vote for $1.7 trillion funding measure, moving it forward on a 62-to-38 tally, above the required 60-vote threshold for most bills to clear the Senate. One Republican, Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky, voted no. …”
 
Am I correct that Schumer's explanation was that to shut the government down would hand Republicans too much power to cut innocent Federal Employees? And that there was nothing to gain by shutting down? Lessor of two bad choices?

And that Democrats would get blamed for not caving?

Well yes, Trump would have used it to do bad things. No argument there. But all Democrats had to do was point out that it would be Trump's choice to do the bad things. Frankly, as bad as the results of what Trump would have done would have been...........it would have been messaging gold for the Democrats. If Schumer wasn't able to use the gold, then what does that say?
 
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