Ukraine War | Zelensky seeks NATO guarantees for unoccupied Ukraine for peace

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The reason the hammer is $400 is actually a funny story. TLDR, it was a weird accounting issue. The government was buying a bunch of spare parts, one of which was a hammer. The accounting department spread the cost of r&d and some other stuff evenly across all the spare parts so the hammer got the same markup as a jet engine.


And again, spending more than the next nine countries, six of whom are our allies, makes no sense. Is the UK using North Korean or Iranian weapons?
It's not a myth. There are many rules to follow. A lot of your nuts and bolts that you buy at the hardware store are now meeting some sort of standard. Imagine picking up two same screws and one can withstand one force and another a different force.

Your one example may be true but the cost of doing business with DOD can be and usually is more expensive.

"Made in China" not good....
 
When has that ever worked in the past?

When has fighting back ever worked in the past? What?

I love Ukraine taking the fight into Russia. Russians have been in a disinfo fog for a long time, and Russian state media is basically Baghdad Bob telling everyone that Putin shits roses and rainbows every morning and that everything in Ukraine is "fine, fine, fine." So hey, here's some drones that say otherwise. I love it. Hope they send more (but control them a bit better so they don't hit apartments)
 
When has fighting back ever worked in the past? What?

I love Ukraine taking the fight into Russia. Russians have been in a disinfo fog for a long time, and Russian state media is basically Baghdad Bob telling everyone that Putin shits roses and rainbows every morning and that everything in Ukraine is "fine, fine, fine." So hey, here's some drones that say otherwise. I love it. Hope they send more (but control them a bit better so they don't hit apartments)
Fighting back works. Hitting civilian targets with a few bombs or even lots of bombs doesn't work. It might feel good to retaliate. Countries might justify it by saying the other side did it first or it will sap the will to resist but it never works.

Hitting military targets with a few bombs is much more effective.
 
It's not a myth. There are many rules to follow. A lot of your nuts and bolts that you buy at the hardware store are now meeting some sort of standard. Imagine picking up two same screws and one can withstand one force and another a different force.

Your one example may be true but the cost of doing business with DOD can be and usually is more expensive.

"Made in China" not good....
It wasn't my example. It was literally your example that was shown to be erroneous with a quarter century old article.
 
I did cite the Germans bombing the brits. But more recently we bombed the Vietnamese. The Syrians and Russians bombed Syrian rebels. And the Israelis are bombing Hamas. Its too soo to tell for Israel and probably Syria, but it definitely did not work in Vietnam.
And this is why there's no solid equivalent: those examples only work if the Vietnamese bombed the US, the Syrians bombed Russia or Hamas was able to bomb Israel at all.

To Tar Spiels point, the Russians haven't had to taste their own medicine as the aggressor. Let's see if their resolve is as strong when inflation is ridiculously high, assets are scarce AND they're getting hurt or killed.
 
And this is why there's no solid equivalent: those examples only work if the Vietnamese bombed the US, the Syrians bombed Russia or Hamas was able to bomb Israel at all.

To Tar Spiels point, the Russians haven't had to taste their own medicine as the aggressor. Let's see if their resolve is as strong when inflation is ridiculously high, assets are scarce AND they're getting hurt or killed.
Well Hamas does bomb Israel. And their allies bomb Israel as well even though Israel retaliates. It hasn't stopped Israel and Israel's bombings haven't stopped them from being bombed.

But no. I'm specifically citing the strategy of bombing civilian targets hoping that that will somehow cause those civilians to force an end to the war. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked. One of the reasons we don't have a whole lot of recent examples is because the West figured out it does not work. Ukraine will figure it out too.
 
Demographics are a disaster in Ukraine. From Col Cossand's column:

"The biggest problem Ukraine faces is not the rebuilding of destroyed towns but the continuing depopulation. Ukrainian birth rates are catastrophically low, and were terrible even before the war. Mortality has spiked as access to healthcare has suffered. Ukraine might be left with a population of as low as 15 million people in the government-controlled part of the territory (as opposed to the part Russia occupies) by 2030, if millions of war refugees don't all flood back. In many cases Ukraine might end up with semi-empty cities especially as the older groups start to die off. Russian authorities in the Lugansk region have already made some comments to the effect that rebuilding some of the destroyed towns doesn't make sense because nobody is going to live there anyway."
 
Well Hamas does bomb Israel. And their allies bomb Israel as well even though Israel retaliates. It hasn't stopped Israel and Israel's bombings haven't stopped them from being bombed.

But no. I'm specifically citing the strategy of bombing civilian targets hoping that that will somehow cause those civilians to force an end to the war. It doesn't work. It hasn't worked. One of the reasons we don't have a whole lot of recent examples is because the West figured out it does not work. Ukraine will figure it out too.
The Israelis were initially 100% behind the war in Gaza since they were attacked first. However, Bibi has lost support as they've suffered more attacks and that pressure is only going to increase.

Israel isn't going to destroy their neighbors but there is a tipping point where they get destroyed by their hostile neighbors. The Israelis won't let it get that far because Bibi isn't a dictator in truth.

And you still haven't given an example that matches Ukraine's situation. The reason that consistently bombing civilians hasn't worked is because it's always in the country where the fighting is already happening.
 
Demographics are a disaster in Ukraine. From Col Cossand's column:

"The biggest problem Ukraine faces is not the rebuilding of destroyed towns but the continuing depopulation. Ukrainian birth rates are catastrophically low, and were terrible even before the war. Mortality has spiked as access to healthcare has suffered. Ukraine might be left with a population of as low as 15 million people in the government-controlled part of the territory (as opposed to the part Russia occupies) by 2030, if millions of war refugees don't all flood back. In many cases Ukraine might end up with semi-empty cities especially as the older groups start to die off. Russian authorities in the Lugansk region have already made some comments to the effect that rebuilding some of the destroyed towns doesn't make sense because nobody is going to live there anyway."
Seems like worrying about what may happen in 2030 is less important than focusing on the issue right in front of them, which is the war creating an immediate existential crisis. Win the war then go about fixing demographic problems.
 
Fighting back works. Hitting civilian targets with a few bombs or even lots of bombs doesn't work. It might feel good to retaliate. Countries might justify it by saying the other side did it first or it will sap the will to resist but it never works.

Hitting military targets with a few bombs is much more effective.

Well, I doubt hitting civilians was intentional in this case
 
The Israelis were initially 100% behind the war in Gaza since they were attacked first. However, Bibi has lost support as they've suffered more attacks and that pressure is only going to increase.

Israel isn't going to destroy their neighbors but there is a tipping point where they get destroyed by their hostile neighbors. The Israelis won't let it get that far because Bibi isn't a dictator in truth.

And you still haven't given an example that matches Ukraine's situation. The reason that consistently bombing civilians hasn't worked is because it's always in the country where the fighting is already happening.
The reason I haven't provided an example is because it doesn't really work and the West doesn't really do it anymore. We also don't have an awful lot of wars between different countries anymore. Most really are civil wars.

But we do have the example of Saddam bombing Iranian cities to demoralize their citizens And Iran retaliating by bombing Iraqi cities. That didn't work And the war lasted another 4 years.

I'd turn it around. Give an example that is similar to Ukraine that did work.
 
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Seems like worrying about what may happen in 2030 is less important than focusing on the issue right in front of them, which is the war creating an immediate existential crisis. Win the war then go about fixing demographic problems.
The problem is they are very close to losing. Our media do of poor job of relaying what's happened the past 12 weeks.
 
The reason I haven't provided an example is because it doesn't really work and the West doesn't really do it anymore. We also don't have an awful lot of wars between different countries anymore. Most really are civil wars.

But we do have the example of Saddam bombing Iranian cities to demoralize their citizens And I ran retaliating by bombing Iraqi cities. That didn't work And the war lasted another 4 years.

I'd turn it around. Give an example that is similar to Ukraine that did work.

There is no example of a country the size of Ukraine bombing a country as large as Russia. The closest we have is the Houthis shooting missiles into KSA but 1) they've failed to hit any targets worthy of the public getting outraged and 2) KSA is an absolute monarchy controlled by the Sunnis and the only game in town trying to legitimately overthrow them are the Shia, which the Sunni majority population won't work with.
 
Well, I doubt hitting civilians was intentional in this case
Agree. There’s not a pattern of it like there is in Gaza and Ukraine. Hit targets that would make life harder on the Russian people, but don’t hit purely civilian targets.
 
Russia creating a Putin Youth basically

At age 25, Maryana Naumova is one of the freshest faces of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s wartime propaganda machine.
She has a show on the flagship Kremlin-controlled television network Channel One, 85,000 subscribers on Telegram, the messaging app that is now the main news platform for Russian speakers worldwide, and is a regular speaker at youth forums, universities and talk shows across the country.



Formerly a child-prodigy powerlifter with little experience in journalism, Naumova has reported from most of the major battles of the war in Ukraine — including, most recently, Kyiv’s incursion into Russia’s Kursk region, as well as from Mariupol and Bakhmut, two Ukrainian cities that Russian forces nearly demolished and then seized. Her dispatches have focused not on Russia’s military as an invading force but as liberators of Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine.


“We showed everything as it was,” Naumova said in an interview with The Washington Post about her coverage of Russia’s siege of Mariupol, in which she claimed without evidence that Ukrainian forces attacked civilians. “It was very strange that the state of Ukraine shelled its own citizens,” she said. “I felt such dissonance. It was incomprehensible to me. … I mean … they call them their people.”

Naumova is one of thousands of young Russians who have inserted themselves into their country’s new wartime system, adopting Kremlin spin as their own beliefs and ensuring that Putin’s core ideology, of ultranationalist patriotism and Orthodox Christian values, will be carried forward by a new generation. This includes the idea that the United States wants to destroy Russia and that Russia is a peace-seeking victim rather than an aggressor. Like Naumova, they see themselves as patriotic truth-tellers, not instruments of spin.

About 7 in 10 Russians between ages 18 and 24 — 69 percent — support Russia’s war in Ukraine, according to an August poll conducted by the Levada Center, an independent polling group; at the same time, nearly as many — 67 percent — say they are not following the war closely or at all. But 66 percent of young Russians also support moving toward peace talks, according to the poll — a higher proportion than the overall population, of whom only 50 percent support moving toward such talks.

Since Putin ordered tanks with the letter Z scrawled across them into Ukraine in February 2022, the Kremlin has drastically expanded its focus on youth — introducing militaristic programs in schools and unleashing a barrage of hyper-patriotic messaging. While thousands of young people have left Russia, those who remain are part of a new generation that is redefining what it means to be Russian and will shape the nation’s outlook for decades. As much as any seizure of Ukrainian territory, experts say, this will be a tangible legacy of Russia’s war.
 
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