Ukraine War

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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nycfan said:
Ukraine doesn't have that kind of leverage — if Trump offers a deal and they say know, it won’t take long for him to end all US assistance. And I don’t see Europe stepping into that breach.
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Agree, but that is sad in its reality. We should continue to help ukraine but europe should be funding the majority of it.
 
What he said before taking office and what he says after taking office carry two different weights at the negotiating table.

There was no reason to officially go on record and say we wouldn't support Ukraine into NATO, without using that as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
 
Putin will never agree to a pact that allows Ukraine into NATO. That puts a NATO ally literally on his doorstep. Ukraine is a buffer zone between Russia and Poland.
 
roostra said:
What he said before taking office and what he says after taking office carry two different weights at the negotiating table.

There was no reason to officially go on record and say we wouldn't support Ukraine into NATO, without using that as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
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That we can agree on.
 
mynameisbond said:
Putin will never agree to a pact that allows Ukraine into NATO. That puts a NATO ally literally on his doorstep. Ukraine is a buffer zone between Russia and Poland.
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Finland, Estonia and Latvia, all NATO members, are already literally on his doorstep. Poland and Lithuania border the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad Oblast, so technically also have a border with Russia.
 
NATO and EU membership for Ukraine or a full Russian withdrawal from all of Ukraine, including Crimea. The choice should have been in play and even that would have been seen as a victory for Putin. Giving him both is a clear defeat for the US and our European allies.
 
No real leverage given away. All parties fully aware:

Ukraine’s not getting its 2014 borders back; and
Ukraine is not getting NATO membership.

These issues were “pretend” leverage points. Pete was simply stating these realities.
 
Ramrouser said:
No real leverage given away. All parties fully aware:

Ukraine’s not getting its 2014 borders back; and
Ukraine is not getting NATO membership.

These issues were “pretend” leverage points. Pete was simply stating these realities.
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Where Ukraine's borders end up is very much in play - there is a lot of space between pre-war borders and where they are now. How hard we pushed with NATO membership as a bargaining chip would have been a large determinant in the outcome. And Trump unilaterally gave that up.

I must have missed that chapter in the Art of the Deal.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Not with this imbecile in the WH, but it could have been.
Trump will be forever known as the President who knelt (or bent over) before Russia.
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Such a non serious post. Why didn't obama do it? Why didn't biden do it? Why didn't biden negotiate a peace deal? Why did obama concede crimea? I mean you are criticizing trump for not being able to negotiate a peace deal where russia gets none of the ground it holds now, but saw russia invade ukraine twice under dim presidents. You have lost your mind
 
Callatoroy said:
Such a non serious post. Why didn't obama do it? Why didn't biden do it? Why didn't biden negotiate a peace deal? Why did obama concede crimea? I mean you are criticizing trump for not being able to negotiate a peace deal where russia gets none of the ground it holds now, but saw russia invade ukraine twice under dim presidents. You have lost your mind
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I have to say, every time I see you use the pejorative "dim" for Democrat, you lose a lot of credibility with me.

(Not that I would imagine you particularly care, but here we are).
 
roostra said:
I have to say, every time I see you use the pejorative "dim" for Democrat, you lose a lot of credibility with me.

(Not that I would imagine you particularly care, but here we are).
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Is that a one way street? Do all the pejoratives used to describe republicans affect your evaluations of credibility as well? Sorry you are thrown off by that. I usually use it when responding to those who it so aptly applies to.
 
nycfan said:
Ukraine doesn't have that kind of leverage — if Trump offers a deal and they say know, it won’t take long for him to end all US assistance. And I don’t see Europe stepping into that breach.
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I disagree in that (i) Putin will have been rewarded by Trump for this invasion, (ii) there is a significant chance that he will feel emboldened by Trump's public declaration that the US will do nothing if Europe is attacked, (iii) such aggression directly threatens Europe and in my view the UK and (iv) the combined armies of Germany, France, the UK, and Poland (not to mention the rest of NATO other than the US) would be able to crush and drive out Russia from Ukranian territory in a matter of weeks.

So I think that there is a chance that you are wrong in that Europe may determine that it faces an existential crisis and act accordingly just like Israel does in the middle east when facing such threats except that the combined European armies are much more powerful.

So something along the lines of such European alliance forcing Russia out and restoring Ukraine's borders and establishing a DMZ along the border akin to North/South Korea. In my view they possibly seize/blockage Kaliningrad as an unacceptable security risk behind the line. Russia would then have to decide if nuclear escalation is worth it. I think it is improbable given how much Putin and his oligarchs love money and the good life.
 
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Callatoroy said:
Is that a one way street? Do all the pejoratives used to describe republicans affect your evaluations of credibility as well? Sorry you are thrown off by that. I usually use it when responding to those who it so aptly applies to.
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To be fair, yes, I generally think less of the arguments made by folks who use this kind of language. Which is why I don't use it.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Those damn Ukrainians! If they had only rolled over for Putin and the Russian Army and allowed themselves to be conquered, we wouldn't be in this situation!
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You obviously don't speak Trump. That isn't what he meant but is a great example of how and why he is such a horrid speaker. He just has an inability and lack of awareness to think how his comments are going to be perceived. Either that or he just doesn't give a fuck and if its that, he makes things so much harder on himself than he needs to.
 
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