UNC Football Catch-all | Bill Belichick Era underway

[Ddseddse]

Stop. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am not OK with any of that. I have criticized that shit unsparingly. I would never have anything to do with their horrifying golf league because it is an MBS initiative.

The House of Saud has 15000 members. Sometimes American media calls them all "royals" but that's not accurate. They are more like British lords. A tiny minority of them are connected to MBS. Most of them are just rich playboys. There is also some private wealth in the area, especially in the last 15 years, though I wouldn't think that to be the most likely source.

There are also Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. Lawyers who practice deal financing, who can get quite $$. Lots of US law schools have remote "campuses" in various places in Arabia and the UAE.

I think we are talking at cross purposes. We are solidly in "both of these things can be true at the same time" territory.

My priority is a world where human rights are increasingly respected, I believe my criticism of the regression of human rights in SA is warranted, despite how well integrated SA is otherwise into the world economy. You are free to disagree.

 

[superrific]

Well, I seem to remember a huge "centralization of finances" with the the better portion of the Saudi Royal family under house arrest in a hotel signing away their interests to MBS.

Are you OK with that? Are you OK with jailing comedians who poke fun at the royal family for decades long jail terms? Are you OK with vivisection via bone saw of investigative journalists?

You have some balls to label all criticism MBS's SA (and his soft power use of the Sovereign wealth fund to whitewash all of this) as simple "racism".

There are 15000 members of the House of Saud. You're talking about a couple dozen of them, I believe. An article on wikipedia says 320 princes, ministers and officials were detained. Last I checked, that's not a better portion. And they were not signing away their interests in toto. bin Talal supposedly paid $6B to gain his release, which is of course a shit ton of money but also not exactly all of his estimated $40B net worth.

And the reason that MBS went after them was in part because many of them are more pro-Western than MBS wanted them to be.

Look, if we announce a $1B partnership with Saudi Arabia, that is almost certainly going to be big royal money and greenwashing. If the partnership is more like $5-10M, it very well could be a single person or handful of people with at most different ties to the monarchy.

 

[superrific]

My priority is a world where human rights are increasingly respected, I believe my criticism of the regression of human rights in SA is warranted, despite how well integrated SA is otherwise into the world economy. You are free to disagree.

Are we talking about the regression of human rights in SA, or are we talking about UNC soliciting money?

I agree with you about human rights in SA. I thought we were talking about fundraising.

 

[Ddseddse]

Are we talking about the regression of human rights in SA, or are we talking about UNC soliciting money?

I agree with you about human rights in SA. I thought we were talking about fundraising.

No. We are talking about UNC fund raising.

Look, no one who is money laundering is going to advertise the fact. They are going to disguise it in such as way as it looks like something other than it is. That's the point. Given the fact that is an explicitly stated goal use the Sovereign Wealth Fund's resources to promote SA on the world stage via investments in sports franchises. you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical huge Saudi "no strings attached "donation" appearing out of literally nowhere.

If you want to take it on face value, you are welcome to. To me it's so wildly serendipitous on one hand, and so closely aligned with MSB's strategic objectives on the other hand, that you'll excuse me for being fairly skeptical of the out-of-the-blue "gift".

In my personal experience, folks with zero personal attachment to the university aren't in the habit of dropping seven or eight figure donations on on the university for no discernible reason.

 

[CFordUNC]

Oh boy. I'm going to make one short statement to you and then leave it there, because I like you.

You are taking a very negative attitude toward a perceived event based on inaccurate stereotypes of a people and a country, who are foreign to you, to whom wm (and maybe you) assigns collective blame for a past atrocity, and who use that sense of collective blame to impugn all individuals about whom you know nothing.

You be the judge of whether that is or isn't racism.

I mean this in all humility and sincerity: if what I have written constitutes racism, then I genuinely was not aware and certainly I apologize because it isn’t my intent. Nor was my intent to impugn every single person in Saudi Arabia by implying that every single person in Saudi Arabia is a sponsor of terrorism. Not my intent in the slightest. My intent was to express staunch disagreement that UNC would seek investment/donation from someone in Saudi Arabia (presumably not an alumnus or anyone with any previous connection to the university, because otherwise my assumption would be that it would’ve been made clear in the statement by our PR folks). I also would like to register my strong disbelief that the anonymous Saudi in question is truly some benevolent, altruistic sports fan who is just dying to give away millions of dollars to one of the most mediocre American college football programs. Certainly I recognize that there is a massive gap between that possibility, and that of the person being directly connected to state-sponsored terrorism. So if my posts came across as implying that literally every single person with money in Saudi Arabia is wielding a bonesaw, then I did not properly articulate or convey my points.

 

[NCK9]

Right. This would be even less than that. The point is, Ronaldo is getting paid even though the Saudis are not remotely making a profit on him. They are funneling money to him and other big names in the hopes of establishing a premier global soccer league. The line between salary and donation in these contexts is thin.

Ronaldo is a loss leader - just like signing big name golfers to the LIV or what the USFL tried to do in signing Hershel Walker, Doug Flutie, and Mike Rozier.

I'm struggling to understand what an investor is expecting in return for their investment in UNC (whether it is the Saudis, Goldman Sachs, or someone else).
Future %age of media rights for the next 10 years? A logo on the jersey?

 

[superrific]

I mean this in all humility and sincerity: if what I have written constitutes racism, then I genuinely was not aware and certainly I apologize because it isn’t my intent.

I know that. I knew you would write this. You're a good guy.

 

[rodoheel]

Ronaldo is a loss leader - just like signing big name golfers to the LIV or what the USFL tried to do in signing Hershel Walker, Doug Flutie, and Mike Rozier.

I'm struggling to understand what an investor is expecting in return for their investment in UNC (whether it is the Saudis, Goldman Sachs, or someone else).
Future %age of media rights for the next 10 years? A logo on the jersey?

I share your skepticism about that. IC continues to say that this was a potential *donor* not an *investor.* I do think that difference is important; but candidly wonder if is a difference that was clear to the Saudi individual (could be part of the reason nothing seems to have actually happened).

 

[NCK9]

I share your skepticism about that. IC continues to say that this was a potential *donor* not an *investor.* I do think that difference is importance; but candidly wonder if is a different that was clear to the Saudi individual (could be part of the reason nothing seems to have actually happened).

As Don Corleone said: “Why do you come to me? Why do I deserve this generosity?”

 

[uncsig]

There's a game tonight, right?

 

[rodoheel]

There's a game tonight, right?

 

[uncjhodges]

There's a game tonight, right?

There is one on the schedule. TBD if we actually show up

 

[superrific]

I mean this in all humility and sincerity: if what I have written constitutes racism, then I genuinely was not aware and certainly I apologize because it isn’t my intent. Nor was my intent to impugn every single person in Saudi Arabia by implying that every single person in Saudi Arabia is a sponsor of terrorism. Not my intent in the slightest. My intent was to express staunch disagreement that UNC would seek investment/donation from someone in Saudi Arabia (presumably not an alumnus or anyone with any previous connection to the university, because otherwise my assumption would be that it would’ve been made clear in the statement by our PR folks). I also would like to register my strong disbelief that the anonymous Saudi in question is truly some benevolent, altruistic sports fan who is just dying to give away millions of dollars to one of the most mediocre American college football programs. Certainly I recognize that there is a massive gap between that possibility, and that of the person being directly connected to state-sponsored terrorism. So if my posts came across as implying that literally every single person with money in Saudi Arabia is wielding a bonesaw, then I did not properly articulate or convey my points.

1. I very much doubt they would identify the person as an alum. Might as well publish his name, in that case. I mean, there could be multiple UNC alums, but not enough to shield the person's identity.

2. I didn't say he was benevolent or altruistic. But there's a range of possible motivations. Maybe he wants to meet Bill Belichick. Would he be willing to pay $1M for that? I don't know -- they pay $5M for automobiles that they don't really even drive. Maybe he wants to know if BB can hook him up with Jordon's sister.

It's a culture of ostentatiousness, which makes sense if you think about it. There are these heirs who have big allowances given to them by birth. But there is little prospect for advancement for a number of reasons. If you're born close to the royals, wonderful for you. If you're three degrees separated from MBS, then you're a nobody. So in order to be something other than just an anonymous playboy in the desert, you spend money. It's conspicuous consumption. Of course, if all you do is buy the same things as everyone else, you're not achieving your goal.

3. Why did Ryan Reynolds buy Wrexham? It was worse than mediocre. A couple of decades ago, a German billionaire bought Hoffenheim FC, for some reason. I guess they wanted to play Football Manager in real life. I don't know. I just don't think you can infer very much from our "mediocrity", especially since:

4. You might be assigning them more knowledge than is warranted. Think about if you come into some money on the condition that you use it to buy an English football club. Would you buy Queens Park Rangers? Do you know who Queens Park Rangers is? I'm guessing that you don't, unless you play Football Manager or follow English soccer closely. So someone calls you, says "hey CFord, I heard you're interested in soccer. Let's meet." The person comes to meet with you and sell you on the Q.P.R. football club. The presentation is good; the finances seem sound; why not?

I've long wondered how European basketball players end up at the colleges they do. Before Gonzaga was good, they were recruiting foreign players -- indeed, that's how they got good. What possessed those European players to go to fucking Gonzaga of all places? Probably because they didn't really know that it was a backwater school. The coach made a good presentation, and they decided to go there. Didn't Dave Odom recruit a bunch of foreign players to Wake? If you were an ACC caliber player from abroad, why the hell would you choose Wake? Sarunas went to Maryland. Why there? Well, perhaps because they don't know that much about American college basketball. They probably know Duke and UNC and Kentucky and then beyond that, nothing.

And the UNC brand name could very well be doing a lot of work here. Not UNC football. Just UNC. Again, let's flip it. Someone comes to you from Barcelona Athletic Club. Offers you an investment opportunity. You think, fuck yeah! Well, they want investment in their women's handball team. Maybe their women's handball team has always been lame and mediocre. Do you really care? Or are you attracted to investing in Barcelona, 'cause you know, that's where Messi played?

5. Point is, there are so many possibilities here that jumping to conclusions seems awfully premature. Lots of plausible candidates, lots of plausible motivations, lots of plausible situations.

 

[superrific]

As Don Corleone said: “Why do you come to me? Why do I deserve this generosity?”

Well, if it wasn't drug dealing but an undertaking business, it could be as simple as being the Godfather to Johnny Fontaine. Or in our case, Michael Jordan or Julius Peppers or Lawrence Taylor or Drake Maye. We've been a mediocre football program overall, but we've also produced a fair number of football superstars. Dre Bly. Didn't Gio Bernard have at least one huge and amazing punt return?

When you are dealing with people who shell out a few million per year on cars, who knows what motivates them? The fact is that they are very different from us in culture and life outlook, so I just don't see how this type of reasoning gets you anywhere.

And maybe the person did want major influence over the program. Well, he's not going to get it at Alabama. Ryan Reynolds bought Wrexham; maybe this person is thinking something similar.

 

[superrific]

No. We are talking about UNC fund raising.

Look, no one who is money laundering is going to advertise the fact. They are going to disguise it in such as way as it looks like something other than it is. That's the point. Given the fact that is an explicitly stated goal use the Sovereign Wealth Fund's resources to promote SA on the world stage via investments in sports franchises. you'll excuse me if I'm skeptical huge Saudi "no strings attached" donation" appearing out of literally nowhere.

In my personal experience, folks with zero personal attachment to the university aren't in the habit of dropping seven or eight figure donations on on the university for no discernible reason.

1. With all due respect, how much personal experience do you have with Saudi nobility? I have none. It might be hard for us to understand motivations of people we don't know anything about it. It's a different culture, in a different place, in a very different economic and cultural system. Why would you assume that their motivations would be the same as those with which we have personal experience.

2. The Sovereign Wealth Fund is a complex entity. Also, do we know if that's where the money comes from? I have a vague and possibly incorrect memory that the fund is not only an investment vehicle but a mechanism for currency controls. If so, then any donation might have to be approved by the fund, even if the wealth isn't coming from there. And also, as I said before, I'm pretty sure that the sovereign wealth manages the cash for the whole House of Saud. So, for instance, suppose you're a minor noble on a $2M allowance. That comes from oil revenue in some capacity. Well, what happens is that the oil revenue goes centrally into the coffers of the government, which manages it. But you can pull out some of your $2M when you want, because it's still your money.

These princes are hopeless with money. They do not spend or invest it wisely. The whole point of the sovereign wealth fund was to stop wasting kingdom resources on stupid boondoggle projects. Now we might ask whether putting the money under centralized control of a monarch is a sound strategy for high returns, but that's a different story.

Point is, just because the PIF is involved doesn't necessarily mean the money is coming from the royal family or close to it.

3. I have no issues with being skeptical. In fact, I try to be skeptical about everything I don't know, as much as I can be. I think my position here is skepticism: i.e. we don't know anything about the arrangement at all. If your skepticism is "I don't trust SA at all," that's fine as long as you keep it as skepticism. When it becomes a default negativity, it's not skepticism any more.

4. I'm not really arguing anything positive here because I don't know it. I got involved here because I saw people talking about how Saudi Arabia was to blame for 9/11, that we would be transacting business with the King of Bonesaws, etc. I have no opinion on Lombardi here. People say he's a clown, but they are talking football. Maybe he's a clever salesman who doesn't know much football but can sell ice to an Eskimo. That would be consistent with his pattern of failing up, right? I'm not defending him, advocating for him, or anything. I'm saying, there are a lot of assumptions being made on this thread that are inaccurate, and a lot of conclusions that are unwarranted.

 

[CFordUNC]

To me, regardless of the semantics of whether or not this would-be Saudi national would be an investor or a donor (personally I think it’s a distinction without a difference), it’s still feels like a perfect encapsulation of how embarrassing it is for UNC to be flailing so publicly in this manner. My annoyance has only grown with the success that Indiana is currently having. There is absolutely, positively no way that anyone can convince me that Indiana University- a basketball school in every possible sense of the word with a far worse football history than even UNC‘s traditional mediocrity- should be running laps around UNC as it pertains to building a football program with staying power. But they are.

To me, the blueprint for what Indiana has done is the exact one that I’ve been begging UNC to follow for years, but we refuse to do so, because it would actually involve rolling up our sleeves and doing the hard work, instead of wanting to win the press conference and the headlines with style over substance. Indiana identified a solid, non-flashy, football coach that was a strong cultural fit for what they wanted to accomplish, and they built an entire infrastructure of investment around him, getting many of the university’s top benefactors on board with the plan. Indiana did not go hire an aging out of work football coach, who was long past his prime, solely because he has six Super Bowl rings. Indiana did not go hire the biggest blowhard they could find to be a GM. Indiana did not go hire someone who was going to stock his staff with nepo babies and cronies. Indiana did not go hire someone who would need to go begging in Saudi Arabia for funding. UNC did!

But UNC would never hire a Curt Cignetti type because it’s not flashy, it wouldn’t generate headlines, it wouldn’t win the press conference, it wouldn’t allow our boosters to brag to their other rich buddies at other schools that they have access to a celebrity. And therein lies the core problem.

 

[Calheel]

To me, regardless of the semantics of whether or not this would-be Saudi national would be an investor or a donor (personally I think it’s a distinction without a difference), it’s still feels like a perfect encapsulation of how embarrassing it is for UNC to be flailing so publicly in this manner. My annoyance has only grown with the success that Indiana is currently having. There is absolutely, positively no way that anyone can convince me that Indiana University- a basketball school in every possible sense of the word with a far worse football history than even UNC‘s traditional mediocrity- should be running laps around UNC as it pertains to building a football program with staying power. But they are.

To me, the blueprint for what Indiana has done is the exact one that I’ve been begging UNC to follow for years, but we refuse to do so, because it would actually involve rolling up our sleeves and doing the hard work, instead of wanting to win the press conference and the headlines with style over substance. Indiana identified a solid, non-flashy, football coach that was a strong cultural fit for what they wanted to accomplish, and they built an entire infrastructure of investment around him, getting many of the university’s top benefactors on board with the plan. But UNC would never hire a Curt Cignetti type because it’s not flashy, it wouldn’t generate headlines, it wouldn’t win the press conference, it wouldn’t allow our boosters to brag to their other rich buddies at other schools that they have access to a celebrity. And therein lies the core problem.

Indiana won the lottery. It is not a blueprint. No one in the history of modern football has done what Cignetti has done.

 

[Ddseddse]

1. With all due respect, how much personal experience do you have with Saudi nobility? I have none. It might be hard for us to understand motivations of people we don't know anything about it. It's a different culture, in a different place, in a very different economic and cultural system. Why would you assume that their motivations would be the same as those with which we have personal experience.

2. The Sovereign Wealth Fund is a complex entity. Also, do we know if that's where the money comes from? I have a vague and possibly incorrect memory that the fund is not only an investment vehicle but a mechanism for currency controls. If so, then any donation might have to be approved by the fund, even if the wealth isn't coming from there. And also, as I said before, I'm pretty sure that the sovereign wealth manages the cash for the whole House of Saud. So, for instance, suppose you're a minor noble on a $2M allowance. That comes from oil revenue in some capacity. Well, what happens is that the oil revenue goes centrally into the coffers of the government, which manages it. But you can pull out some of your $2M when you want, because it's still your money.

These princes are hopeless with money. They do not spend or invest it wisely. The whole point of the sovereign wealth fund was to stop wasting kingdom resources on stupid boondoggle projects. Now we might ask whether putting the money under centralized control of a monarch is a sound strategy for high returns, but that's a different story.

Point is, just because the PIF is involved doesn't necessarily mean the money is coming from the royal family or close to it.

3. I have no issues with being skeptical. In fact, I try to be skeptical about everything I don't know, as much as I can be. I think my position here is skepticism: i.e. we don't know anything about the arrangement at all. If your skepticism is "I don't trust SA at all," that's fine as long as you keep it as skepticism. When it becomes a default negativity, it's not skepticism any more.

4. I'm not really arguing anything positive here because I don't know it. I got involved here because I saw people talking about how Saudi Arabia was to blame for 9/11, that we would be transacting business with the King of Bonesaws, etc. I have no opinion on Lombardi here. People say he's a clown, but they are talking football. Maybe he's a clever salesman who doesn't know much football but can sell ice to an Eskimo. That would be consistent with his pattern of failing up, right? I'm not defending him, advocating for him, or anything. I'm saying, there are a lot of assumptions being made on this thread that are inaccurate, and a lot of conclusions that are unwarranted.

Yeah, I don't think our disagreement here (to the extent we even disagree on much here at all) is based on facts, as much as it is on differences of opinion.

I think we are both saying something akin to "when you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras". But in our case is more like you're saying "when you hear baaing noises think goats, not sheep" and I'm saying "when you hear baaing noises think sheep not goats". Could really be either.

But what bothers me here is in the above scenario sheep are deathly toxic and will damage our university (and sheep can be adept at disguising themselves as benign goats). Hence my suggestion we stay the hell away from anything that makes a "Baaing" sound.

 

[CFordUNC]

Indiana won the lottery. It is not a blueprint. No one in the history of modern football has done what Cignetti has done.

It is absolutely a blueprint.

1. Go hire someone who has actually had recent success at the collegiate level, even if it’s the G5 level. In other words, don’t go hire somebody who has been out of college football coaching for seven years and whom nobody else would hire, OR don’t go hire someone who quite literally never stepped foot on a college campus in a coaching role in their 7+ decades of life.

2. Have your administration do whatever it takes to provide enough of a good vision that the biggest and most generous benefactors and supporters get on board with surrounding the coach with the financial resources that he needs to be successful.

3. Articulate a strategic plan and vision to the fan base, to the donor base, and to any other important stakeholders about how the coach is going to build his roster and construct his program.

4. Win football games.

Indiana didn’t win the lottery. Nobody, probably not even Curt Cignetti himself, would have said that Indiana won the lottery by hiring the coach from James Madison. They simply hired a good football coach. Why in the world should it be hard for UNC to do it, too? Jon Sumrall was right there for the taking. Matt Campbell may have been had we not been running an absolute circus of a coaching search. There are other Curt Cignetti’s out there- UNC just does not have the desire to find them because it’s not flashy.

 

[superrific]

There is absolutely, positively no way that anyone can convince me that Indiana University- a basketball school in every possible sense of the word with a far worse football history than even UNC‘s traditional mediocrity- should be running laps around UNC as it pertains to building a football program with staying power. But they are.

Without contradicting your point (which I don't think is wrong), it is worth considering that you will always come out looking bad if you compare yourself to the champ.

I would say the better comparison would be Indiana over the last 30 years, or even better, the coterie of schools with similar profiles to us. Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, etc. Some of those schools have had halting success in fits and starts (UCLA used to be a power, a long time ago), and so have we.

Which isn't to say that we're doing well but let's at least keep the proper comparisons.