UNC Football Catch-all | Bill Belichick Era underway

[CFordUNC]

Pablo Torre, come save us....

 

[Peppers49]

Two weeks ago, I thought you guys were gonna just have to ride it out with Belichick... but now... I'm pretty sure the faster this divorce sees the inside of a courtroom the better. (For you guys)

Sadly I don’t think we’re going to get that lucky. All of the sideshow bullshit is an awful look, but unless something much worse going on behind the scenes comes to light (I guess anything is possible with this situation) I just don’t see how we’d be able to fire him for cause. The buyout number being what it is means we’ll likely have to suffer through the rest of this season and then a lame duck season next year.

 

[Carolina Fever]

Cool. Too bad Mack still underachieved when he had Drake because the defense sucked.

 

[Icky Mettle]

Cool. Too bad Mack still underachieved when he had Drake because the defense sucked.

We definitely squandered some great offenses led by great QBs during the Mack Brown years thanks to some inept defenses.

 

[superrific]

Great question. The 2011 coaching staff essentially lost their jobs on July 27, 2011 when Butch Davis was fired, a week before training camp started, but of course they had to continue coaching the entire season while knowing that no matter what they did on the field, they weren't going to get to stay at Carolina. Even knowing all of that, I remember that they were coaching and teaching just as hard throughout training camp, and in practices and games during the season, as they had before Butch was axed. They still took the mentoring part of their jobs seriously. They still cared about the players and made sure to remain accessible.

This current staff, on the other hand, I've heard it directly from people who work within the UNC athletics department- and it's even been corroborated by parents of current players on IC- that there is virtually zero contact or connection between the players and coaches outside of the practice field and game day. When I was in the program, the fourth floor of the Kenan Football Center (which is where all of the coaches' offices reside) was completely open to players at any time they wanted to go up to talk with the coaches. I've heard that to go to the fourth floor now might as well be like trying to go into a SCIF and that there is none of the mentorship/chatting about life/investing in relationships with the players on the part of the current staff.

OK, that's helpful. Can we go a little further? Note: for purposes of this discussion, we have to assume BB actually wants to win. I understand that there are indications that maybe he doesn't give a rat's ass about that, but if that's the case then none of this matters. So:

1. What you describe makes total sense. BB is running the show like he did in the NFL, where the players are professionals. They don't need mentoring from the coaches in that way.

2. So, these meetings -- let's say a sophomore LB is heading up to the 4th floor. What's he going to talk about? Is it a) coach, I'm struggling with things in my life and it's hard to focus on football; b) I'm having trouble getting motivated like I need to be; c) on that play where I didn't set the edge, I don't really understand what I was supposed to do because if I commit to that the guy who stunts underneath -- isn't he also my responsibility; d) what drills do I need to do to work on this weakness of mine.

I mean, I'm guessing at one point or another all of those get asked, but generally speaking, which one would predominate, do you think? There are a lot of types of mentoring.

3. If this is the (or at least a) big problem, one would think it would be easy to fix -- depending on what type of mentoring. BB is probably not going to hold a guy's hand when his gf broke up with him. One would think BB would be able to describe the scheme and answer questions about individual responsibility. But anyway, suppose BB went back to the old policies of making himself available. Is it too late for that? Has he already irreparably lost the team, do you think? Is it something he could fix in the offseason?

I mean, again, we're supposing that he's trying to win. Now, it could be that "Trying to win" BB still wouldn't have that open door policy and couldn't have it because it's not who he is -- that's what I don't know. Obviously if he's not trying to win then nothing matters.

4. Also, quite apart from BB, it's helpful for me to learn more about what coaches actually do for players. I don't have insight into what makes a coach good. I have more insight in basketball, though there are still mysteries there as well -- but anyway, let's stick to football.

 

[superrific]

We definitely squandered some great offenses led by great QBs during the Mack Brown years thanks to some inept defenses.

And some great defenses thanks to some uninventive offenses, many years prior.

 

[Calheel]

Sadly I don’t think we’re going to get that lucky. All of the sideshow bullshit is an awful look, but unless something much worse going on behind the scenes comes to light (I guess anything is possible with this situation) I just don’t see how we’d be able to fire him for cause. The buyout number being what it is means we’ll likely have to suffer through the rest of this season and then a lame duck season next year.

The buyout isn't that bad. It is $20 million after this year, and it does not need to be paid all at once. We were going to pay that money anyway, so the only additional cost is what we need to pay the new staff, which we likely could get much cheaper than what we are paying Bill. Maybe Pryer can fork over the money since he was the one who got us into the situation.

Texas A&M paid $80 million to make Jimbo go away. We are talking about building a $1 billion arena on North Campus. I am sure we can find some couch cushions somewhere with us enough money to get out of this mess.

 

[GoHeelsweeeehoooo]

At first I was thinking we need to give Belichick a little time to get this turned around but it's becoming obvious this is a disaster and needs to be ended sooner rather than later

 

[Milk and Cookies]

At first I was thinking we need to give Belichick a little time to get this turned around but it's becoming obvious this is a disaster and needs to be ended sooner rather than later

I'm around this same place but not quite ready to declare disaster status. I think for me if (when?) recruits start decommitting that will be the final signal that this experiment is unrecoverable.

 

[gregh1]

His kids are still trying to be professional coaches in the only professional arena they've sniffed, they aren't even in their 40's yet. I see the Belichick trio fighting hard to right the ship vs something akin to throwing in the towel. That doesn't mean they know what they're doing of course. There were clearly giant lessons to learn about HS recruiting and portal recruiting, while painful they seem like easy lessons to learn. And it appears BB himself has lessons to learn about surrounding himself with competent offensive coaches.

Pending "lessons" TBD:
- Can they effectively scheme raw, fundamentally immature players? Steve B did okay at UW. Jedd Fisch is an offensive-minded guy, so the D was Steve B's.

- Can we scout raw vs seasoned, matured athletes? TBD, but if Saban gave remotely decent advice then BB is hiring competent personnel folks (Blaylock and Giddens, Lance Thompson, who knows about NFL's Joe Anile or Lombo).

- Can they teach fundamentals to kids? Were Steve B's OLBs okay at UW?

 

[CFordUNC]

His kids are still trying to be professional coaches in the only professional arena they've sniffed, they aren't even in their 40's yet. I see the Belichick trio fighting hard to right the ship vs something akin to throwing in the towel. That doesn't mean they know what they're doing of course. There were clearly giant lessons to learn about HS recruiting and portal recruiting, while painful they seem like easy lessons to learn. And it appears BB himself has lessons to learn about surrounding himself with competent offensive coaches.

Pending "lessons" TBD:
- Can they effectively scheme raw, fundamentally immature players? Steve B did okay at UW. Jedd Fisch is an offensive-minded guy, so the D was Steve B's.

- Can we scout raw vs seasoned, matured athletes? TBD, but if Saban gave remotely decent advice then BB is hiring competent personnel folks (Blaylock and Giddens, Lance Thompson, who knows about NFL's Joe Anile or Lombo).

- Can they teach fundamentals to kids? Were Steve B's OLBs okay at UW?

Those are all really, really good and thoughtful questions.

On the high school recruiting piece, it was really alarming to me last week that Lombardi sent out that weird letter about how this is going to be a 3–4 year rebuild and that we are going to do it by taking ~40 high school players in the next class. To me, that just shows a completely disqualifying fundamental lack of understanding of what college football is these days, and especially of what college football is for a program specifically like UNC.

If they are truly going to focus on bringing in 40ish high school kids next year, we are going to be right back in this same situation, except we are going to be getting our brains beaten in with 18-year-old freshmen on the field instead of 23 year old Sun Belt castoffs. They need to be focused almost exclusively on rebuilding this roster through good talent evaluation of kids who have already played college football, who have already been in college football strength and conditioning regimens, who are already acclimated to what college football is. We do not have three or four years for them to be able to rebuild with 40ish high school kids in the next three or four recruiting classes, because 2/3 of those kids will not be at UNC for their sophomore or junior seasons.

UVA this year is an absolute perfect case in point for what UNC should be. Virginia had been absolutely awful for Tony Elliott’s first three seasons. This year, they have great odds at present of being in the ACC championship game and having an outside shot at the CFP. They did great work in the portal- they brought in a few pieces from bluebood schools like Ohio State and Notre Dame, or other P4 schools like Louisville, where players were either recently graduated and wanting to play a fifth year somewhere, or players looking for a fresh start. They brought in some guys like their center who started at UAB and had multiple years of starting experience. They brought in some guys from lower level G5 and FCS ranks who looked great on film and who were hungry to get a chance to prove themselves at the P4 level. The cherry on top was nailing the evaluation of the quarterback Chandler Morris. Add it all up, and they have gone from arguably the worst P4 team in the country last year to a team with very good odds of having a double digit win season.

 

[Peppers49]

The buyout isn't that bad. It is $20 million after this year, and it does not need to be paid all at once. We were going to pay that money anyway, so the only additional cost is what we need to pay the new staff, which we likely could get much cheaper than what we are paying Bill. Maybe Pryer can fork over the money since he was the one who got us into the situation.

Texas A&M paid $80 million to make Jimbo go away. We are talking about building a $1 billion arena on North Campus. I am sure we can find some couch cushions somewhere with us enough money to get out of this mess.

The buyout is not bad by SEC standards, but we have never paid anywhere close to that kind of money to get rid of a coach before. For that reason I’m in “I’ll believe it when I see it” mode.

Beyond the money, I could also see the people who put this together behind the scenes not wanting to admit how wrong they were and insisting on at least one more season just to try and save face. “Hey we know this season was rough, but Belichick says he’s going to come back focused next year without all the off field distractions, he’ll clear house and hire new assistants, and will have a full transfer portal cycle”. It almost definitely won’t work, but that’s how I see this playing out right now. Would love to be wrong.

 

[Calheel]

The buyout is not bad by SEC standards, but we have never paid anywhere close to that kind of money to get rid of a coach before. For that reason I’m in “I’ll believe it when I see it” mode.

Beyond the money, I could also see the people who put this together behind the scenes not wanting to admit how wrong they were and insisting on at least one more season just to try and save face. “Hey we know this season was rough, but Belichick says he’s going to come back focused next year without all the off field distractions, he’ll clear house and hire new assistants, and will have a full transfer portal cycle”. It almost definitely won’t work, but that’s how I see this playing out right now. Would love to be wrong.

We paid $12 million to get rid of Fedora in 2018 (spread out over time) and $20 million is well within the range of acceptable buyouts - particularly when you consider the inflation in coaching salaries since 2018.

Typically, a coach contract is 5 years. So Bill’s buyout is not any more than a regular contract.

Look we want to play in big time football. Part of that expense is paying buyouts when things don’t work out.

It will be far more expensive to play in front of an empty stadium for the next two years - especially when conference realignment is upon us.

We can’t afford not to fire him.

 

[CRHeel94]

Those are all really, really good and thoughtful questions.

On the high school recruiting piece, it was really alarming to me last week that Lombardi sent out that weird letter about how this is going to be a 3–4 year rebuild and that we are going to do it by taking ~40 high school players in the next class. To me, that just shows a completely disqualifying fundamental lack of understanding of what college football is these days, and especially of what college football is for a program specifically like UNC.

If they are truly going to focus on bringing in 40ish high school kids next year, we are going to be right back in this same situation, except we are going to be getting our brains beaten in with 18-year-old freshmen on the field instead of 23 year old Sun Belt castoffs. They need to be focused almost exclusively on rebuilding this roster through good talent evaluation of kids who have already played college football, who have already been in college football strength and conditioning regimens, who are already acclimated to what college football is. We do not have three or four years for them to be able to rebuild with 40ish high school kids in the next three or four recruiting classes, because 2/3 of those kids will not be at UNC for their sophomore or junior seasons.

UVA this year is an absolute perfect case in point for what UNC should be. Virginia had been absolutely awful for Tony Elliott’s first three seasons. This year, they have great odds at present of being in the ACC championship game and having an outside shot at the CFP. They did great work in the portal- they brought in a few pieces from bluebood schools like Ohio State and Notre Dame, or other P4 schools like Louisville, where players were either recently graduated and wanting to play a fifth year somewhere, or players looking for a fresh start. They brought in some guys like their center who started at UAB and had multiple years of starting experience. They brought in some guys from lower level G5 and FCS ranks who looked great on film and who were hungry to get a chance to prove themselves at the P4 level. The cherry on top was nailing the evaluation of the quarterback Chandler Morris. Add it all up, and they have gone from arguably the worst P4 team in the country last year to a team with very good odds of having a double digit win season.

I was incredulous at that letter. His solution is to go exactly the opposite way pf where college football is headed? These guys were supposed to be expert talent evaluators of college players and suddenly they're going to pivot to be masters of high school recruiting?

I've listened to Lombardi for years. Dude is a self-aggrandizing blowhard. He's great at throwing lines in the media, but there were doubts at his efficacy in the pro game. Feels like they ran off some players that would have been useful about now.

And don't even get me started about the staff. Plenty of underwhelming choices.

 

[theel4life]

 

[Enigma94]

We paid $12 million to get rid of Fedora in 2018 (spread out over time) and $20 million is well within the range of acceptable buyouts - particularly when you consider the inflation in coaching salaries since 2018.

Typically, a coach contract is 5 years. So Bill’s buyout is not any more than a regular contract.

Look we want to play in big time football. Part of that expense is paying buyouts when things don’t work out.

It will be far more expensive to play in front of an empty stadium for the next two years - especially when conference realignment is upon us.

We can’t afford not to fire him.

Wasn’t Fedora’s remaining contract $12M over 4 years? So one more year would have only saved $3M, whereas BB’s remaining contract is $20M over 2 years, so one more year is a savings of $10M. I doubt we buy him out after one year, but it’s been so terrible who knows?

 

[Ddseddse]

Wasn’t Fedora’s remaining contract $12M over 4 years? So one more year would have only saved $3M, whereas BB’s remaining contract is $20M over 2 years, so one more year is a savings of $10M. I doubt we buy him out after one year, but it’s been so terrible who knows?

As I understand it, we're on the hook for the full 30 Mil, whether he coaches her for three years or not.

 

[Peppers49]

We paid $12 million to get rid of Fedora in 2018 (spread out over time) and $20 million is well within the range of acceptable buyouts - particularly when you consider the inflation in coaching salaries since 2018.

Typically, a coach contract is 5 years. So Bill’s buyout is not any more than a regular contract.

Look we want to play in big time football. Part of that expense is paying buyouts when things don’t work out.

It will be far more expensive to play in front of an empty stadium for the next two years - especially when conference realignment is upon us.

We can’t afford not to fire him.

Listen I agree with all of this, I’m just skeptical that the people who actually call the shots do.

 

[Oddball]

I was incredulous at that letter. His solution is to go exactly the opposite way pf where college football is headed? These guys were supposed to be expert talent evaluators of college players and suddenly they're going to pivot to be masters of high school recruiting?

I've listened to Lombardi for years. Dude is a self-aggrandizing blowhard. He's great at throwing lines in the media, but there were doubts at his efficacy in the pro game. Feels like they ran off some players that would have been useful about now.

And don't even get me started about the staff. Plenty of underwhelming choices.

100% on point. Not only would we suck for another 2 to 3 seasons, as soon as we develop some of those kids into good players they will get scooped up by bigger programs.... just like we lost 2 of our best players this offseason (Atkinson and Campbell) even after they got to see BB's plan.

And do we have any faith that this staff can identify as talent better than they did small college talent? It's not like BB/Lombardi have any history with seeing kids develop from 16 yrs old to 22, so how would that be part of their "expertise"?

Just a total cluster fuck of a situation

 

[CRHeel94]

The worst part is that he's doing such a terrible job that no NFL owner will go near him.

Yeah, I know they passed on him last time but I think his insistence on being in charge of personnel had a lot to do with that.