US STRIKES VENEZUELA / CAPTURES MADURO

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Why cant y’all simply celebrate this “win” for the USA? This hurts China and may be the final nail in the coffin for the dictatorships in Iran and Cuba?

Plus, the Venezuelans sure seem happy today.
This is not a win for the USA. At minimum, this sets a dangerous precedent that encourages the world to act unilaterally with force and encourages leaders to proliferate nuclear arms. The fact Trump supporters can't see this goes directly to their own short sightedness as it relates to Trump as president.
 
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This is not a win for the USA. At minimum, this sets a dangerous precedent that encourages the world to act unilaterally with force and encourages leaders to proliferate nuclear arms. The fact Trump supporters can't see this goes directly to their own myopathy as it relates to Trump as president.
Exactly. We aren't going to pull that shit on somebody who has nuclear arms.
 
Any country or foreign leader that may have theoretically been previously on the fence about obtaining nuclear weapons probably had their mind made up last night, now that United States has openly signaled a willingness to allow it’s president to unilaterally and extra-congressionally violate the sovereignty of other nations by putting boots on the ground to capture heads of state.
 
Any country or foreign leader that may have theoretically been previously on the fence about obtaining nuclear weapons probably had their mind made up last night, now that United States has openly signaled a willingness to allow it’s president to unilaterally and extra-congressionally violate the sovereignty of other nations by putting boots on the ground to capture heads of state.
Iran is presently throwing everything they have into it.
 



Article II, Section 2 of The Constitution is where the president is authorized as The Commander-in-Chief. This wishful extrapolation.

Section 2​

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

https://constitution.congress.gov/c...sident and,other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

The War Powers Act of 1973 was basically Congress saying: The title ofCommander-in-Chief, and the words of The Constitution (Article II, Section 2) does not mean that the President has unilateral war-making authority.

 
On the bright side, the good news is that we have done such a bang-up job this past quarter century of liberating places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya of their dictatorial despots and subsequently setting them up to be shining beacons of exemplary democratic success stories, so at least we have a proven track record of this type of action working out splendidly for us!
 
Any country or foreign leader that may have theoretically been previously on the fence about obtaining nuclear weapons probably had their mind made up last night, now that United States has openly signaled a willingness to allow it’s president to unilaterally and extra-congressionally violate the sovereignty of other nations by putting boots on the ground to capture heads of state.
Is Maduro the head of state?
 
Any country or foreign leader that may have theoretically been previously on the fence about obtaining nuclear weapons probably had their mind made up last night, now that United States has openly signaled a willingness to allow it’s president to unilaterally and extra-congressionally violate the sovereignty of other nations by putting boots on the ground to capture heads of state.
The abandonment of Ukraine started the ball rolling. Actions like this will only cause it to accelerate.

For example…

 
a few points made my elliot abrams at national review a few days ago i hope he is right

President Trump is pressing, harder than we did in his first term (when I served as special representative for Venezuela), for change. This is very much in the interests of the United States. The greatest refugee flow in the history of this hemisphere, the 8 million Venezuelans who have fled, will not stop as long as Maduro is in power. The drug flows out of Venezuela will not stop as long as his regime remains, because it relies on income from drug (and also gold and human) trafficking to survive. And the cooperation between that regime and hostile powers — Cuba, Russia, China, Iran — and terrorist groups like Hezbollah will not stop because they help the regime survive and share its hostility to the United States.

I read and hear the objections: After Maduro may come chaos, as in Libya or Iraq, or divisions such as we see in Syria, and there’s no reason to think what comes next will be any better.

These arguments show a lack of familiarity with Venezuelan history, today’s Venezuela, and Latin American politics and society. The divisions that we see in many Middle Eastern countries — historical and geographical, such as in Libya, or social and religious, as in Iraq or Syria, do not exist in Venezuela’s quite homogeneous society. Venezuela is surrounded by democracies and is one of the rare non-democratic countries in this hemisphere. Venezuela, unlike most Middle Eastern countries, has a history of democracy starting with its overthrow of a military dictator in 1958 and lasting until Hugo Chavez began to destroy it 40 years later. Democratic institutions do not need to be invented, but rather restored and reinvigorated.

Nor is there a case in Latin America where a transition to democracy was followed by the kind of social and political collapse into anarchy that some analysts seem to fear. In Venezuela, a new government will of course have to deal with the military — but that was true of every Latin American transition, and in no case has there been a successful military coup reversing the transition. As to the “colectivos,” irregular paramilitary groups that the regime has organized to intimidate the opposition, they too will have to be dealt with — but their power comes from their ties to the regime. Once its ideological, political, financial, and military support ends, the strength of the colectivos will wane steadily.

Nor are arguments that the Venezuelan opposition is hopelessly divided and incompetent true. The opposition united behind Machado despite ideological differences and past rivalries.
 



"Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, have been indicted in the Southern District of New York. Nicolas Maduro has been charged with Narco-Terrorism Conspiracy, Cocaine Importation Conspiracy, Possession of Machineguns and Destructive Devices, and Conspiracy to Possess Machineguns and Destructive Devices against the United States. They will soon face the full wrath of American justice on American soil in American courts. On behalf of the entire U.S. DOJ, I would like to thank President Trump for having the courage to demand accountability on behalf of the American People, and a huge thank you to our brave military who conducted the incredible and highly successful mission to capture these two alleged international narco traffickers.

7:25 AM · Jan 3, 2026"

I am reminded of Hamlet here...

The point Shakespeare works to make in Hamlet is that when wrath dominates reason, justice is perverted and social order collapses.
 



"Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, have been indicted in the Southern District of New York. Nicolas Maduro has been charged with Narco-Terrorism Conspiracy, Cocaine Importation Conspiracy, Possession of Machineguns and Destructive Devices, and Conspiracy to Possess Machineguns and Destructive Devices against the United States. They will soon face the full wrath of American justice on American soil in American courts. On behalf of the entire U.S. DOJ, I would like to thank President Trump for having the courage to demand accountability on behalf of the American People, and a huge thank you to our brave military who conducted the incredible and highly successful mission to capture these two alleged international narco traffickers.

7:25 AM · Jan 3, 2026"

I am reminded of Hamlet here...

The point Shakespeare works to make in Hamlet is that when wrath dominates reason, justice is perverted and social order collapses.

Bondi's use of "wrath" as a proxy for "justice" struck me too. And it's entirely consistent with how the admin has used the DOJ thus far and, more broadly, with the modern conservative idea that the law is meant to shield the in-group but bind the out-group.
 
JFC. Anybody who thinks that literally kidnapping a foreign leader and trying him for a crime in their own country is a good idea is crazy. We just did something that outlaw rogue states do - North Korea used to kidnap South Korean scientists, engineers, etc. that they thought might be useful to them. The entire world just saw the USA attack another nation and kidnap - and that's exactly what it is - a foreign leader on dubious charges, and Trump has made it clear that we're really doing this just to get control of Venezuela's oil. All this is going to do is to isolate us even more from our historical and traditional allies and make us even more into a rogue state like Russia.

And this "raid" does fit perfectly with Trump 2.0's announced goal of abolishing the global order of international alliances that has existed since WW2 (and worked rather well, as we haven't had a world war since), and replacing it with a new system in which the USA, China, and Russia just divide the entire world into 3 "spheres of influence" with China getting a free hand to do what it wants in Asia (and probably most of Africa), Russia gets a free hand to do what it wants (or is able to) in Europe, and America gets the entire Western Hemisphere. And to judge from this reckless action it would appear that means that the USA can just do whatever the hell it wants and Canada and our Latin American neighbors just have to suck it up and take the bullying. I have a hunch that this new world order isn't going to be nearly as stable or successful as the one Trump 2.0 is just throwing away, but as has been made clear no one - including Congress - is going to do much to stop them.
 
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a few points made my elliot abrams at national review a few days ago i hope he is right

President Trump is pressing, harder than we did in his first term (when I served as special representative for Venezuela), for change. This is very much in the interests of the United States. The greatest refugee flow in the history of this hemisphere, the 8 million Venezuelans who have fled, will not stop as long as Maduro is in power. The drug flows out of Venezuela will not stop as long as his regime remains, because it relies on income from drug (and also gold and human) trafficking to survive. And the cooperation between that regime and hostile powers — Cuba, Russia, China, Iran — and terrorist groups like Hezbollah will not stop because they help the regime survive and share its hostility to the United States.

I read and hear the objections: After Maduro may come chaos, as in Libya or Iraq, or divisions such as we see in Syria, and there’s no reason to think what comes next will be any better.

These arguments show a lack of familiarity with Venezuelan history, today’s Venezuela, and Latin American politics and society. The divisions that we see in many Middle Eastern countries — historical and geographical, such as in Libya, or social and religious, as in Iraq or Syria, do not exist in Venezuela’s quite homogeneous society. Venezuela is surrounded by democracies and is one of the rare non-democratic countries in this hemisphere. Venezuela, unlike most Middle Eastern countries, has a history of democracy starting with its overthrow of a military dictator in 1958 and lasting until Hugo Chavez began to destroy it 40 years later. Democratic institutions do not need to be invented, but rather restored and reinvigorated.

Nor is there a case in Latin America where a transition to democracy was followed by the kind of social and political collapse into anarchy that some analysts seem to fear. In Venezuela, a new government will of course have to deal with the military — but that was true of every Latin American transition, and in no case has there been a successful military coup reversing the transition. As to the “colectivos,” irregular paramilitary groups that the regime has organized to intimidate the opposition, they too will have to be dealt with — but their power comes from their ties to the regime. Once its ideological, political, financial, and military support ends, the strength of the colectivos will wane steadily.

Nor are arguments that the Venezuelan opposition is hopelessly divided and incompetent true. The opposition united behind Machado despite ideological differences and past rivalries.
Naive and hubristic - the exact combination that yielded the calamities in "Libya, Iraq, and Syria" abrams references in his own missive. The idea that Venezuela is "homogenous" completely misunderstands the very nature of societies and their abilities to form heterogeneous groups within a whole. Libya, Iraq, and Syria were heterogeneous largely due to sectarian religious groups and historical tribes - that may not exist as much in Venezuela but there are plenty of other routes for discord and sectarianism that go beyond the previously mentioned religious and tribe strife.
 
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