War on Universities, Lawyers & Expertise

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korgguy1971 said:
I think this is what MAGA nation misses about authoritarian ire. It never ends. They think they're in the ingroup and are safe, but this is transient at best, and it's only a matter of time before the "didn't think the leopards would eat my face" folks find themselves in the outgroup getting their faces eaten by leopards.
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There. Is. No. Safe. Space.
 
lawtig02 said:
Yeah, the problem is that, in the real world, the best research institutions in the history of the world (elite American universities) are dependent on federal funding. Trump and his MAGA enablers picked up on that dependency and are using it to extort those universities into politically-advantageous settlements in order to keep the federal funds flowing.
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SCOTUS could stop it if it wanted. Instead it has become a slave to a metastatic ideology born from Scalia's expressly fascist fearmongering.
 
lawtig02 said:
Yeah, the problem is that, in the real world, the best research institutions in the history of the world (elite American universities) are dependent on federal funding. Trump and his MAGA enablers picked up on that dependency and are using it to extort those universities into politically-advantageous settlements in order to keep the federal funds flowing.

The end result will be that the universities either (a) drop or massively curtail their research efforts, or (b) jettison the government and look to other sources for funding, which means the funding will be a tiny fraction of what we've been able to do by pooling our resources through federal grants. Whatever the specific result, the outcome will be less scientific research, worse medical and technological outcomes for Americans, and an acceleration of the shift from the US to China as the center of the R&D universe.

So congrats, MAGA? You score points against your bogeymen in the short term, I guess. But all of us will suffer in the long term.
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We threw Xi and Chyna a lifeline.
 
superrific said:
Harvard did. They went to court multiple times, and won multiple times.

The problem is that the administration doesn't care whether the schools did anything wrong. The investigation is the point. The harassment is the point.

It's not a schools-caving problem. It's a SCOTUS problem. What are schools supposed to do when they see that SCOTUS has stayed like 15 injunctions in a row involving Trump overstepping his authority? Why litigate to get an injunction if the court is just going to stay it?

This is why I say SCOTUS is no longer a court and needs to be institutionally destroyed. Their goal is to decrease litigation against the administration's rampant illegality, so they don't have to confront the hellscape they created. They just stay judgments without thinking, and go home to their wives with flags and lucrative jobs placing clerks with law firms. Meanwhile, in the real world, what to do?
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You know I agree with you about SCOTUS generally (though not necessarily the remedy) but the Supreme Court hasn't yet stayed any relief that Harvard got, nor am I convinced that they would.
 
superrific said:
Did this spelling predate Trump? I don't know if he was tapping into some older line of animus that involved this type of exaggerated pronunciation or if it's a Trump original.
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It's a parody on Trump, specifically his derogatory pronunciation...although Trump has profited from his brand manufacturing deals with China. Ivanka received 41 trademark deals with China while working in the WH.

www.forbes.com

Ivanka’s Trademark Requests Were Fast-Tracked In China After Trump Was Elected

The day before she was officially appointed to the White House staff, Ivanka Trump applied for 17 new trademarks in China.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

He's working for Putin and Xi, not for America.
 
rodoheel said:
You know I agree with you about SCOTUS generally (though not necessarily the remedy) but the Supreme Court hasn't yet stayed any relief that Harvard got, nor am I convinced that they would.
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No they haven't stayed that. But think about what you just said: "nor am I convinced they would." Before last year, would you think there was any chance at all the judgment would be stayed? In a normal court:

1. Rules are predictable
2. Lower courts are respected and the appeals courts have the district courts' backs
3. There is deference to the lower court fact finding
4. Stays are extraordinary remedies that are used rarely.

And under these assumptions, Duke would tell the administration to fuck off because it would be confident in its legal rights and remedies.

But under SCOTUS' reign of terror, all bets are off. Sure, maybe you'd get an injunction that the Supreme Court would let stand, but maybe not. And if you can't count on the courts to have your back when the government is acting in ways that everyone agrees is unconstitutional, then maybe you look to settle, or just fold.

This is why the failure to explain its stays is, to me, so significant and so horrifying. The effect has been to make SCOTUS completely unpredictable -- or, if there is any predictability, it's the very bad inference (fairly drawn) that they will let Trump do anything. And an unpredictable court is no court at all.
 
superrific said:
No they haven't stayed that. But think about what you just said: "nor am I convinced they would." Before last year, would you think there was any chance at all the judgment would be stayed? In a normal court:

1. Rules are predictable
2. Lower courts are respected and the appeals courts have the district courts' backs
3. There is deference to the lower court fact finding
4. Stays are extraordinary remedies that are used rarely.

And under these assumptions, Duke would tell the administration to fuck off because it would be confident in its legal rights and remedies.

But under SCOTUS' reign of terror, all bets are off. Sure, maybe you'd get an injunction that the Supreme Court would let stand, but maybe not. And if you can't count on the courts to have your back when the government is acting in ways that everyone agrees is unconstitutional, then maybe you look to settle, or just fold.

This is why the failure to explain its stays is, to me, so significant and so horrifying. The effect has been to make SCOTUS completely unpredictable -- or, if there is any predictability, it's the very bad inference (fairly drawn) that they will let Trump do anything. And an unpredictable court is no court at all.
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I'm not disagreeing with you about the problems with SCOTUS, and in particular that they are now issuing so many rulings without explanation or reasoning and then telling lower courts that those rulings are somehow precedential. But to me this a classic example of the danger of complying in advance. Your logic would suggest that all parties who are ideologically opposed to the current administration and Supreme Court should stop taking any legal fights whatsoever and instead should just roll over and submit to whatever authoritarian urges Trump might have in the next 3.5 years. I think that is absolutely the wrong approach. Maybe the Supreme Court would surprise me and stay the injunctions against universities in favor of the admin. But we should damn well put the admin and the court through their paces, rather than letting everything have a chilling effect on legitimate claims and grievances so the court doesn't even have to go on record as allowing the administration to do this sort of cartoonishly authoritarian stuff.

If freaking Harvard can't afford to bow up and fight for a few months to a year than who can? Somebody better stand up and fight soon or there will be no one left to fight. I'm not just content to sit back and watch the Trump admin extort every university and law firm in the country for the next three years. Yeah, the Supreme Court sucks ass and is complicit as hell in all of this. But even if they're going to be cowards who refuse to write opinions for significant rulings, at least make them make a damn ruling before we start assuming the worst of everything and not even bringing the cases.

ETA: keep in mind, there ARE examples of the admin backing down in the fact of suits against some of their actions. See the lawsuits that Jeff Jackson and other state AGs brought to restore billions in funding that the Department of Education was withholding from states.
 
rodoheel said:
I'm not disagreeing with you about the problems with SCOTUS, and in particular that they are now issuing so many rulings without explanation or reasoning and then telling lower courts that those rulings are somehow precedential. But to me this a classic example of the danger of complying in advance. Your logic would suggest that all parties who are ideologically opposed to the current administration and Supreme Court should stop taking any legal fights whatsoever and instead should just roll over and submit to whatever authoritarian urges Trump might have in the next 3.5 years. I think that is absolutely the wrong approach. Maybe the Supreme Court would surprise me and stay the injunctions against universities in favor of the admin. But we should damn well put the admin and the court through their paces, rather than letting everything have a chilling effect on legitimate claims and grievances so the court doesn't even have to go on record as allowing the administration to do this sort of cartoonishly authoritarian stuff.

If freaking Harvard can't afford to bow up and fight for a few months to a year than who can? Somebody better stand up and fight soon or there will be no one left to fight. I'm not just content to sit back and watch the Trump admin extort every university and law firm in the country for the next three years. Yeah, the Supreme Court sucks ass and is complicit as hell in all of this. But even if they're going to be cowards who refuse to write opinions for significant rulings, at least make them make a damn ruling before we start assuming the worst of everything and not even bringing the cases.

ETA: keep in mind, there ARE examples of the admin backing down in the fact of suits against some of their actions. See the lawsuits that Jeff Jackson and other state AGs brought to restore billions in funding that the Department of Education was withholding from states.
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We agree. I'm only saying that the risk-reward analysis has changed considerably in the last six months. As you know, possession is the majority of the law (I never accepted 90%), and it's the government that possesses it. And the universities need these funds or their labs will close and scholars will leave and they won't come back. So there's some urgency from the university's perspectives'. And imagine going to law school, working hard to get on Law Review, only to have the DOJ sue YOU. The Law Review.

I used to think the court was cowardly. Now I think they are intentionally undermining the rule of law. There is no other explanation for the lack of any reasoning. Even on the shadow docket they would normally write a paragraph or two setting forth the basis of the decision. Now, not only are they providing nothing -- they are castigating the district courts for being unable to read their minds. It seems clear to me that the Supreme Court is Saruman to Trump's Sauron.
 
rodoheel said:
ETA: keep in mind, there ARE examples of the admin backing down in the fact of suits against some of their actions. See the lawsuits that Jeff Jackson and other state AGs brought to restore billions in funding that the Department of Education was withholding from states.
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The difference is that the states retain an incentive to sue because it costs nothing. Well, it costs something but you know what I mean. We have elected AGs precisely for this purpose. And states can't so readily settle.
 
superrific said:
We agree. I'm only saying that the risk-reward analysis has changed considerably in the last six months. As you know, possession is the majority of the law (I never accepted 90%), and it's the government that possesses it. And the universities need these funds or their labs will close and scholars will leave and they won't come back. So there's some urgency from the university's perspectives'. And imagine going to law school, working hard to get on Law Review, only to have the DOJ sue YOU. The Law Review.

I used to think the court was cowardly. Now I think they are intentionally undermining the rule of law. There is no other explanation for the lack of any reasoning. Even on the shadow docket they would normally write a paragraph or two setting forth the basis of the decision. Now, not only are they providing nothing -- they are castigating the district courts for being unable to read their minds. It seems clear to me that the Supreme Court is Saruman to Trump's Sauron.
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I'm not asking the student members on Duke's law review (who aren't really the targets of anything anyway) to stand up and fight. I am asking some of the largest and most powerful universities in the country - Duke, Harvard, etc - to stand up and fight. You are absolutely right that there is a lot at stake for these universities, but I think faculty and prospective faculty are asking their universities to do more than just turn the flow of research dollars back on. I think they are looking for principled and courageous university leaders who will stand up to bullying and protect the academic freedom of their universities at all costs.

We all know who the real bad guys are here. I'm not blaming the universities for being in this predicament; just like I don't blame the elite law firms for their predicament. But at some point someone needs to grow some freaking backbone and be unafraid to stand up and say "this is wrong, this is corrupt, and we're not going to stand for it." Because when they roll over and settle, the average American is just going to shrug their shoulders and say "I guess it wasn't that big a deal/I guess they deserved it." And the universities aren't going to buy any guarantee of future funding or safety from subsequent extortion - they're just sending the administration a message that yes, they can be extorted by this sort of pressure.

This is government as a protection racket. And a protection racket never ends. You go ahead and pay $100 to avoid having your window busted in. But the enforcers are still coming around next month asking for $100 more. You either stand up to the racket and hope it inspires others to stand with you, or you roll over and ensure that you'll be paying the bribe money forever. But rolling over isn't going to inspire anyone, that's for damn sure. People need to fight, not just in the courts but in the public sphere. Casual political observers need to understand what this administration really is and how nefarious the things it's doing really are. Elite universities are surely imperfect messengers for that message, but someone has to freaking do it. I think most of them think "just suck it up for the next 3.5 years and then things will get back to normal" but things aren't going to go back to normal if the general public doesn't understand how corrupt and craven and damaging for the country this all is.
 
rodoheel said:
I'm not asking the student members on Duke's law review (who aren't really the targets of anything anyway) to stand up and fight. I am asking some of the largest and most powerful universities in the country - Duke, Harvard, etc - to stand up and fight. You are absolutely right that there is a lot at stake for these universities, but I think faculty and prospective faculty are asking their universities to do more than just turn the flow of research dollars back on. I think they are looking for principled and courageous university leaders who will stand up to bullying and protect the academic freedom of their universities at all costs.

We all know who the real bad guys are here. I'm not blaming the universities for being in this predicament; just like I don't blame the elite law firms for their predicament. But at some point someone needs to grow some freaking backbone and be unafraid to stand up and say "this is wrong, this is corrupt, and we're not going to stand for it." Because when they roll over and settle, the average American is just going to shrug their shoulders and say "I guess it wasn't that big a deal/I guess they deserved it." And the universities aren't going to buy any guarantee of future funding or safety from subsequent extortion - they're just sending the administration a message that yes, they can be extorted by this sort of pressure.

This is government as a protection racket. And a protection racket never ends. You go ahead and pay $100 to avoid having your window busted in. But the enforcers are still coming around next month asking for $100 more. You either stand up to the racket and hope it inspires others to stand with you, or you roll over and ensure that you'll be paying the bribe money forever. But rolling over isn't going to inspire anyone, that's for damn sure. People need to fight, not just in the courts but in the public sphere. Casual political observers need to understand what this administration really is and how nefarious the things it's doing really are. Elite universities are surely imperfect messengers for that message, but someone has to freaking do it. I think most of them think "just suck it up for the next 3.5 years and then things will get back to normal" but things aren't going to go back to normal if the general public doesn't understand how corrupt and craven and damaging for the country this all is.
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I know. I also want them to stand up and fight. I just understand why they might think it pointless. And while I was sort of joking about the Duke Law Review (though I disagree that the students would see this as water off a duck's back), we also have to consider the universities responsibilities to the community. As many people have noted, people will die if Duke can't provide the medical care it promised.

The law firms are the bigger villains, in my view. Unlike most faculty/grad students at Harvard, they are loaded, pulling seven figures year over year. Eight, probably in some cases. Their profession literally depends on the rule of law. They don't have other interests to protect (i.e. no research studies with human subjects). It was just greed.
 
rodoheel said:
I'm not asking the student members on Duke's law review (who aren't really the targets of anything anyway) to stand up and fight. I am asking some of the largest and most powerful universities in the country - Duke, Harvard, etc - to stand up and fight. You are absolutely right that there is a lot at stake for these universities, but I think faculty and prospective faculty are asking their universities to do more than just turn the flow of research dollars back on. I think they are looking for principled and courageous university leaders who will stand up to bullying and protect the academic freedom of their universities at all costs.

We all know who the real bad guys are here. I'm not blaming the universities for being in this predicament; just like I don't blame the elite law firms for their predicament. But at some point someone needs to grow some freaking backbone and be unafraid to stand up and say "this is wrong, this is corrupt, and we're not going to stand for it." Because when they roll over and settle, the average American is just going to shrug their shoulders and say "I guess it wasn't that big a deal/I guess they deserved it." And the universities aren't going to buy any guarantee of future funding or safety from subsequent extortion - they're just sending the administration a message that yes, they can be extorted by this sort of pressure.

This is government as a protection racket. And a protection racket never ends. You go ahead and pay $100 to avoid having your window busted in. But the enforcers are still coming around next month asking for $100 more. You either stand up to the racket and hope it inspires others to stand with you, or you roll over and ensure that you'll be paying the bribe money forever. But rolling over isn't going to inspire anyone, that's for damn sure. People need to fight, not just in the courts but in the public sphere. Casual political observers need to understand what this administration really is and how nefarious the things it's doing really are. Elite universities are surely imperfect messengers for that message, but someone has to freaking do it. I think most of them think "just suck it up for the next 3.5 years and then things will get back to normal" but things aren't going to go back to normal if the general public doesn't understand how corrupt and craven and damaging for the country this all is.
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100% agree with all of this. My concern, though, is that our elite universities have been operating on an entirely reasonable assumption, which is that a narcissistic megalomaniac will never be in a position to determine whether they receive the federal funding they rely upon to carry out the extraordinary, irreplaceable research they are conducting to improve the quality of life for not just Americans, but for every citizen of the globe. Harvard, Columbia, Duke, etc. would be INSANE to rely on the federal government for funding after what has happened in the last six months. And that means America is done, finished, kaput, as the R&D center of the world, and the greatest intellectual power the world has EVER seen.

Good luck, China. You inherit the mantle. I hope we'll benefit as much from you as you have from us. And MAGA, if you want to keep up, I strongly suggest you subscribe to some Mandarin classes on Rosetta Stone, which wouldn't exist but for the American exceptionalism you fucked in the ass.
 
lawtig02 said:
100% agree with all of this. My concern, though, is that our elite universities have been operating on an entirely reasonable assumption, which is that a narcissistic megalomaniac will never be in a position to determine whether they receive the federal funding they rely upon to carry out the extraordinary, irreplaceable research they are conducting to improve the quality of life for not just Americans, but for every citizen of the globe. Harvard, Columbia, Duke, etc. would be INSANE to rely on the federal government for funding after what has happened in the last six months. And that means America is done, finished, kaput, as the R&D center of the world, and the greatest intellectual power the world has EVER seen.

Good luck, China. You inherit the mantle. I hope we'll benefit as much from you as you have from us. And MAGA, if you want to keep up, I strongly suggest you subscribe to some Mandarin classes on Rosetta Stone, which wouldn't exist but for the American exceptionalism you fucked in the ass.
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💯
 
superrific said:
SCOTUS could stop it if it wanted. Instead it has become a slave to a metastatic ideology born from Scalia's expressly fascist fearmongering.
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They will only stop it when it's a dem president - that's why they stay vs rule. Ruling it is ok would permit things from a dem
 
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