Why Did Republicans Abandon Conservatism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter CFordUNC
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 300
  • Views: 4K
  • Politics 
hedge said:
I've read plenty of Cato Institute articles in favor of open borders. For example:


Zen, your thoughts? From a libertarian perspective, of course...
Click to expand...
I don't know exactly what you mean by "open border". Are you saying free movement of Mexicans to the US, in the same way that we (Americans) go to Mexico or Polish can travel to Germany, yes, I support that as long as the federal government offers zero social safety net services to those travelers.
 
rodoheel said:
Yes that was a nice “alternative fact”
Click to expand...
They probably mean the Supreme Court (not Obama) legalizing gay marriage in his second term. Obama has never been "far left" on almost anything. In almost any other democracy he would be seen as a centrist on most issues with perhaps a slight leftward tinge on some cultural issues. The GOP is now so far to the right that Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush would be RINOs, and Eisenhower and Nixon would be seen as flaming liberals.
 
Ramrouser said:
The Reagan era conservatism gave out of gas in the 2nd term of the Bush Administration. It was a good run with the small government/libertarians/strong national defense/evangelical alliance lasting approximately 30 years (1975-2005). The Press in the early to mid 2000s transitioned from being simply biased towards the Dems to being Democratic activists - opening rooting for the Dems and vocally opposing the Rs. This caused the conservatives to retreat to Fox News and Rush and talk radio. Then, the Great Recession ushered in the Obama "we're all socialists" era.

Obama turned the party hard left, especially in his 2nd term. He was worshiped by the boot licking press. The reaction on the right was the Tea Party - which was a populist movement emphasizing the debt Obama was running up. The two R Presidential candidates of this era - McCain and Romney - simply wouldn't fight back and respond to the activist Press and increasingly leftist Dems - choosing to play by the old rules. The activists gained power in the Dem party and were pushing the boundaries on the cultural front (what we now call "woke").

Then comes the 2016 primary. Most of the candidates were pretty normal conservatives. Early on, I aligned myself with Rubio thinking the country needed some new conservative blood. Plus, he was marginally associated with the Tea Party. Trump comes in like a bull dozer and does his Trump thing. I didn't initially support him because I didn't think there was anyway in Hell he could win a general election. As time went by, many if not most traditional conservatives supported him because "at least he fought back" with the Press and the Dems unlike McCain and Romney. The unrelenting attacks by the left only caused more Rs to line up behind him as "their guy." Trump appealed to blue collar types the way Romney wing of the R party never could.

As everyone notes, Trump is not a conservative. The Rs have essentially leased Trump to disrupt and take on the Dems - who were growing more left and more woke during and after his term. A lot of Trump support from traditional Rs is "I can't stand those nut cases" and Trump's at least taking them on. Plus, Trump does have some conservative views:

Law and order and support for the police.
He's now embracing a smaller leaner government with DOGE - which he didn't support during his first term.
Tough on China.
Pro Life
Strong borders
Supporter of religious institutions
Strong ally of Israel
Anti - woke madness
Equal - not equitable - opportunities for all

Tariffs and foreign policy is where he strongly veers from the Reagan era. But, on these issues, he has a point. Free trade is great but not always - especially when other countries to not reciprocate. Strong national defense is fine until it evolves into Neocon and endless war foreign policy.

All the crazy stuff about Trump conservatives don't always like, but generally accept, is simply part of the package. We don't see Trump as a "threat to democracy" or that we're headed to a dictatorship. After he completes this glorious term, he'll be gone and parts of the MAGA movement will remain but there won't be another Trump. He's a unicorn. No other politician can get away with what he does so they won't try. Some of the hard core MAGA will stop supporting Rs and return to not voting.

In short, I really haven't changed my conservative principles, I'm just willing to allow Trump to do his thing as the Disrupter in Chief since the Dems went so far crazy and his methods often get things done.

Remember, you asked my opinion.
Click to expand...
This is a good window into how conservatives have retconned the last forty years to make themselves the heroes, and any excesses or missteps are just written off as "well the crazy liberals forced us to do it."

Attributing the fall from grace of the "small government/libertarians/strong national defense/evangelical alliance" to an antagonistic media (lol) and Obama being a "socialist" rather than acknowledging that decades of conservative "lower taxes/cut regulations" policies - the same stuff ramrouser and others want now - blew up at the end of the Bush II administration and tanked the economy, leading to Obama getting swept in with massive popular support

Accusing Obama of a "hard left turn" in his second term (I would love to hear ramrouser explain what that means and how it manifested itself)

Accusing liberals of forcing conservatives to back Trump because of their crazy left-wing policies while Dems have been running milquetoast centrist presidential candidates (did ramrouser get confused and think Bernie Sanders was the establishment centrist and Hillary was the left-wing populist?)

All of this is probably loosely adapted from various chain emails your dumbest uncle has sent you over the years. Just an effective look at the alternative reality conservatives have crafted to explain why everything is liberals' fault.
 
My take is they did it because of their misreading of Revelation. In fact, I don't even think they read, but they have allowed others to misread it and they believe, like many Zionists, that the Messiah cannot return until Israel has full control of all Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount. Specifically, the temple, destroyed in 70 CE, must be rebuilt. That warped view has driven fundamentalist and evangelical eschatology for far too long.
 
BTW - that post from ramrouser is also a good illustration of why anyone who expects Trump voters to ever show any remorse or admit that it was a mistake to support Trump is wasting their breath. Even if Trump destroys the economy or names himself dictator or whatever, the best you're ever gonna get is "I had no choice because the liberals were so crazy" (but more likely they will continue to claim that it's all liberals' fault and there is some giant liberal conspiracy that brought Trump down).
 
And by the way - I truly hope that everything liberals think about Trump turns out to have been an overreaction. I hope I'm wrong about the rising feeling that Trump hollowing out the government and turning it more and more to open corruption will prove disastrous for our country. I hope the harm isn't as great as I fear, or that we can repair it better than I think we can. Ultimately though it's frustrating how avoidable this all is. Despite whatever anyone thinks is wrong with our country (and there certainly are problems) we have the best and biggest economy in the world; we are a worldwide center for innovation; we have the strongest military in the world; we built a post-WWII global order that we have been at the head of, one that decisively defeated our Cold War enemies and made us even stronger. And we're simply going to throw all of that away because a bunch of the people who already have a disproportionate share of the money and power want to have even more of those things - and have used Donald Trump, of all people, as the Pied Piper to lead us gleefully over the cliff.
 
rodoheel said:
And by the way - I truly hope that everything liberals think about Trump turns out to have been an overreaction. I hope I'm wrong about the rising feeling that Trump hollowing out the government and turning it more and more to open corruption will prove disastrous for our country. I hope the harm isn't as great as I fear, or that we can repair it better than I think we can. Ultimately though it's frustrating how avoidable this all is. Despite whatever anyone thinks is wrong with our country (and there certainly are problems) we have the best and biggest economy in the world; we are a worldwide center for innovation; we have the strongest military in the world; we built a post-WWII global order that we have been at the head of, one that decisively defeated our Cold War enemies and made us even stronger. And we're simply going to throw all of that away because a bunch of the people who already have a disproportionate share of the money and power want to have even more of those things - and have used Donald Trump, of all people, as the Pied Piper to lead us gleefully over the cliff.
Click to expand...
Exactly. This is exactly where I’m at. There is nothing in the universe about which I want to be more wrong than I am about Trump. There is nothing I want more than to be able to cheer on a resoundingly successful Trump 2.0 presidency, because it will mean that our country is safe, prosperous, and flourishing. I could not possibly care less which party is presiding over the safety, prosperity, and flourishing. Hell, I would love nothing more than for Donald Trump 2.0 to go down as the greatest four year presidential term in American history. But it’s pretty clear where this is all headed, unfortunately.
 
rodoheel said:
This is a good window into how conservatives have retconned the last forty years to make themselves the heroes, and any excesses or missteps are just written off as "well the crazy liberals forced us to do it."

Attributing the fall from grace of the "small government/libertarians/strong national defense/evangelical alliance" to an antagonistic media (lol) and Obama being a "socialist" rather than acknowledging that decades of conservative "lower taxes/cut regulations" policies - the same stuff ramrouser and others want now - blew up at the end of the Bush II administration and tanked the economy, leading to Obama getting swept in with massive popular support

Accusing Obama of a "hard left turn" in his second term (I would love to hear ramrouser explain what that means and how it manifested itself)

Accusing liberals of forcing conservatives to back Trump because of their crazy left-wing policies while Dems have been running milquetoast centrist presidential candidates (did ramrouser get confused and think Bernie Sanders was the establishment centrist and Hillary was the left-wing populist?)

All of this is probably loosely adapted from various chain emails your dumbest uncle has sent you over the years. Just an effective look at the alternative reality conservatives have crafted to explain why everything is liberals' fault.
Click to expand...
The Reagan coalition gave up on Bush in his 2nd term because:

He was pushing hard for a "comprehensive" immigration policy the base hated
He nominated Harriot Myers to the Supreme Court
Katrina
The endless Iraq War and nation building

Obama did turn left ("transform America") in his 2nd term (you will, of course, claim that all of these actions are sensible "centrist" policies).

Proposed overhaul of nation's gun laws
Proposed path to citizenship for 11M illegal immigrants
Lois Lerner of his Administration ADMITS in a speech to the ABA that the IRS targets conservative groups
Called for strict limits on coal plants
"Travon Marton could have been me." - consistently stoked racial divide
Reid implements the "nuclear option" limiting R's ability to filibuster judges - certainly done with Obama approval
Iran deal - laid the groundwork for Oct 7th.
"I've got a pen and and I've got a phone"
Seriously downplays ISIS "If the jayvee team puts on a Lakers uniforms that doesn't make them Kobe Bryant."
Secures release of traitor Bergdahl for 5 Taliban commanders
Defers deportations for 4M illegal aliens - far more liberal stance on immigration than in first term setting the stage for Biden's immigration policies
Plans to normalize relations with Cuba
vetoes Keystone pipeline

Basically his Administration in the 2nd term was staffed by left wing activists who later formed the core of the Biden Administration.
 
Ramrouser said:
The Reagan coalition gave up on Bush in his 2nd term because:

He was pushing hard for a "comprehensive" immigration policy the base hated
He nominated Harriot Myers to the Supreme Court
Katrina
The endless Iraq War and nation building

Obama did turn left ("transform America") in his 2nd term (you will, of course, claim that all of these actions are sensible "centrist" policies).

Proposed overhaul of nation's gun laws
Proposed path to citizenship for 11M illegal immigrants
Lois Lerner of his Administration ADMITS in a speech to the ABA that the IRS targets conservative groups
Called for strict limits on coal plants
"Travon Marton could have been me." - consistently stoked racial divide
Reid implements the "nuclear option" limiting R's ability to filibuster judges - certainly done with Obama approval
Iran deal - laid the groundwork for Oct 7th.
"I've got a pen and and I've got a phone"
Seriously downplays ISIS "If the jayvee team puts on a Lakers uniforms that doesn't make them Kobe Bryant."
Secures release of traitor Bergdahl for 5 Taliban commanders
Defers deportations for 4M illegal aliens - far more liberal stance on immigration than in first term setting the stage for Biden's immigration policies
Plans to normalize relations with Cuba
vetoes Keystone pipeline

Basically his Administration in the 2nd term was staffed by left wing activists who later formed the core of the Biden Administration.
Click to expand...
Most of this stuff isn't even liberal or conservative - it's just a laundry list of domestic and foreign policy decisions and priorities you disagree with. The stuff that is representative of liberal policy - immigration reform for a path to citizenship, coal plants, Keystone pipeline, gun control, etc - wasn't some leftward shift in Obama's second term, it's the kind of stuff he campaigned on and talked about from his first term through the end.

At any point are you going to acknowledge that conservative policies of tax cuts and deregulation are a big part of the economic problems we've had in the past couple decades - especially the 2008 recession? Conservatives have been promising for 40 years that tax cuts for the rich would "trickle down" to the working class. Well, we've cut taxes for the rich over and over and all it's doing is making rich people richer while working class wages stagnate. What leads you to believe that more tax cuts, smaller government, and deregulation are the path towards prosperity?
 
DantesHair said:
It is racism. They needed a reason to explain their hatred of a black POTUS, so they make up the fact that his politics are far left.
Click to expand...
Sigh - everything is racism.
CFordUNC said:
I was reading through this whole thread again this evening and came across your post again, which, as I mentioned earlier I really appreciated your taking the time to share all of that insight and perspective. I felt like I learned some new stuff, and even if I agreed with some parts and didn't agree with others, I enjoyed it all the same.

Rereading it this evening, I wanted to ask you a follow-up question. You mentioned initially not liking Donald Trump but ultimately voting for him in 2016- which, as I may have shared with you previously, I did the exact same thing. I wanted to hear more about what exactly changed your mind about Trump-whether it was Trump-specific or whether it was more correlated to your dislike of what you perceived to be a hostile/combative anti-Republican media and/or a Democratic Party that was supporting cultural topics/issues with which you personally disagree?

The reason I ask is because you said that you hadn't changed your conservative principles, but you'd acknowledged earlier that Trump isn't even conservative. So I guess my question is, what specifically about Trump or Trumpism appeals to you as a conservative, when you acknowledge that he isn't conservative and by extension many of his policies are actually antithetical to Reaganism/classical conservatism. No right or wrong answer- I'm genuinely curious and wanting to learn another perspective. I'm interested as someone who still adheres to many of the tenets of classical American conservatism, but who cannot see myself ever voting Republican again until or unless pretty much all vestiges of Trumpism/MAGA are eliminated.
Click to expand...
While Trump certainly isn't a classic conservative, he does have many policies that appeal to me and he's certainly a HUGE improvement over the other team (in my opinion). The Dems are nutty and lack common sense with all the woke nonsense and they spent us into inflation. I hated the lawfare and that drove me squarely into Trump's camp.

I'll turn it around, why did you turn against Trump during his term? You made the informed decision to vote for him in 2016. It's not like he did anything different than he campaigned on or suddenly discovered Twitter. It seems to me that you had more of a political conversion vs. a conservative who couldn't deal with Trump's actions any longer. Your conversion to the Dems is counter to my life experience. I know tons of life long Republicans who hate Trump, with a passion, but still held their nose and voted for him last November. They also can't stand, and are embarrassed by, the yahoo MAGAs who attend his rallies and fly MAGA flags but realize they are part of the coalition. For these folks, the modern Dem party/Kamala was simply not an option.
 
Ramrouser said:
Sigh - everything is racism.

While Trump certainly isn't a classic conservative, he does have many policies that appeal to me and he's certainly a HUGE improvement over the other team (in my opinion). The Dems are nutty and lack common sense with all the woke nonsense and they spent us into inflation. I hated the lawfare and that drove me squarely into Trump's camp.

I'll turn it around, why did you turn against Trump during his term? You made the informed decision to vote for him in 2016. It's not like he did anything different than he campaigned on or suddenly discovered Twitter. It seems to me that you had more of a political conversion vs. a conservative who couldn't deal with Trump's actions any longer. Your conversion to the Dems is counter to my life experience. I know tons of life long Republicans who hate Trump, with a passion, but still held their nose and voted for him last November. They also can't stand, and are embarrassed by, the yahoo MAGAs who attend his rallies and fly MAGA flags but realize they are part of the coalition. For these folks, the modern Dem party/Kamala was simply not an option.
Click to expand...
Trump campaigned in 2016 on attempting to overthrow our constitutional system in 2020 and 2021? I must have missed that. I mean, he clearly campaigned on ignoring the constitution in 2024, but I don’t remember him promising to do it in 2016.
 
Ramrouser said:
The Dems are nutty and lack common sense with all the woke nonsense and they spent us into inflation. I hated the lawfare and that drove me squarely into Trump's camp.
Click to expand...
I find it hard to believe you can say these things with a straight face. Look at every Dem and Republican administration going back 30 years and tell me you think Dems are the ones responsible for higher spending.

As for lawfare - Trump spent the entire campaign promising lawfare against his enemies. How can anyone who opposes "lawfare" think they have to support Trump? Trump has made every clear that his first priority is to make the DOJ a political tool that bends to his own personal will. I mean Trump just openly bought the support of Eric Adams by promising to dismiss the prosecution against him - you don't have a problem with that? Yet you're accusing the Biden DOJ - the one that prosecuted the President's own son - of being infected by political bias?
 
Last edited:
rodoheel said:
As for lawfare - Trump spent the entire campaign promising lawfare against his enemies. How can anyone who opposes "lawfare" think they have to support Trump? Trump has made every clear that his first priority is to make the DOJ a political tool that bends to his own personal will. I mean Trump just openly bought the support of Eric Adams by promising to dismiss the prosecution against him - you don't have a problem with that? Yet you're accusing the Biden DOJ - the one that prosecuted the President's own son - of being infected by political bias?
Click to expand...
As with everything else Pubs do, he’s not actually against “lawfare”, he’s just against pubs being held responsible for their actions under the legal system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top