Why Did Republicans Abandon Conservatism?

[TangledUpInBlue06]

As with everything else Pubs do, he’s not actually against “lawfare”, he’s just against pubs being held responsible for their actions under the legal system.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

 

[Lando]

Most of this stuff isn't even liberal or conservative - it's just a laundry list of domestic and foreign policy decisions and priorities you disagree with. The stuff that is representative of liberal policy - immigration reform for a path to citizenship, coal plants, Keystone pipeline, gun control, etc - wasn't some leftward shift in Obama's second term, it's the kind of stuff he campaigned on and talked about from his first term through the end.

At any point are you going to acknowledge that conservative policies of tax cuts and deregulation are a big part of the economic problems we've had in the past couple decades - especially the 2008 recession? Conservatives have been promising for 40 years that tax cuts for the rich would "trickle down" to the working class. Well, we've cut taxes for the rich over and over and all it's doing is making rich people richer while working class wages stagnate. What leads you to believe that more tax cuts, smaller government, and deregulation are the path towards prosperity?

An honest assessment would be to admit that Reagan was a lousy president that sent us headed for a cliff, but Republicans can’t admit that because Reagan makes them feel good. There is no argument against their emotions.

 

[CFordUNC]

While Trump certainly isn't a classic conservative, he does have many policies that appeal to me and he's certainly a HUGE improvement over the other team (in my opinion). The Dems are nutty and lack common sense with all the woke nonsense and they spent us into inflation. I hated the lawfare and that drove me squarely into Trump's camp.

I'll turn it around, why did you turn against Trump during his term? You made the informed decision to vote for him in 2016. It's not like he did anything different than he campaigned on or suddenly discovered Twitter. It seems to me that you had more of a political conversion vs. a conservative who couldn't deal with Trump's actions any longer. Your conversion to the Dems is counter to my life experience. I know tons of life long Republicans who hate Trump, with a passion, but still held their nose and voted for him last November. They also can't stand, and are embarrassed by, the yahoo MAGAs who attend his rallies and fly MAGA flags but realize they are part of the coalition. For these folks, the modern Dem party/Kamala was simply not an option.

Appreciate the response and the back-and-forth on this. Also appreciate the questions- they're totally fair.

I wouldn't say that I feel that I've had any major "political conversion." I've absolutely moved leftward on several policy issues, but my moving leftward simply took me out of "hard core conservatism"- I was previously anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, and anti-immigration as my primary political positions- into something that is a lot more centrist, but would still be considered solidly conservative in every other part of the globe. If the political ideology scale is 0-100 with 0 being extreme far left and 100 being extreme far right, I'd reckon I went from somewhere in the 70-80 range in high school and college, to probably the 45-55 range these days. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever labeling myself a liberal if I thought that I was liberal. I don't see 'liberal' or 'conservative' as pejoratives and don't think less of anyone for being one or the other. For example, the vast majority of what John Fetterman says and a lot of the stances that he takes resonate with me.

As far as why I turned against Trump, I'd say it was a combination of things. I was initially offput by his comments in the aftermath of the tragedy in Charlottesville in 2017. The in 2018, I was even more offput by his comments disparaging American intelligence personnel and military members at the 2018 United States-Russia Summit in Helsinki. I still voted mostly Republican in the 2018 midterms. The last straws for me were in 2020: first with his behavior in the early onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in January, February, March, and April 2020. I thought that his words and his actions were completely beneath a POTUS and that he was sorely lacking the kind of leadership ability that is required of any POTUS in any national and global emergency. Second, his conduct in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder in June 2020 was reprehensible, specifically in using military personnel to physically assault and clear a crowd of protestors with rubber bullets and batons so that he could stage a photo op with an (upside down" Bible in front of St. John's Church. I was already leaning heavily into not supporting his reelection in November of that year, but that day in June sealed the deal for me. It was an unforgivable line to cross.

So, all of that to say, it wasn't some sudden and immediate light that came on for me where one day I was pro-Trump and the next I was anti-Trump. It was a slow, methodical move over the course of his first term, which then rapidly accelerated in 2020. If he had risen to the occasion and proven himself to be a presidential leader during the pandemic and during the race riots during the summer of 2020, I could have likely been convinced to hold my nose and vote for a second term. I'm not sure how long you've been around tis ZZLP community, but if you were around in, say, 2015-2018 or so, you'd have seen that I was actually one of the folks on here who would, if not outright defend Trump, would hand-wave or try to explain away his words and actions. I got taken behind the woodshed on plenty of occasions by plenty of longtime posters here with whom I now find myself aligned.

I'm sure that there are plenty of Republicans who, as you said (and perhaps you are even one of them), "hate Trump, with a passion, but still held their nose and voted for him last November." I definitely don't think that 77 million voters absolutely loved Donald Trump. But the difference between myself- as a former Republican- and those current Republicans, is that for me, I care much more about the overall prosperity and well-being of our country than I care about having to hold my nose and vote for "my party." I'm not nearly partisan enough to care about which party holds power as long as the power is being used to genuinely make America stronger, safer, and more prosperous for all Americans. I personally do not believe that Donald Trump and the current GOP are doing those things- I also understand that you probably very strongly disagree with me on that.

 

[superrific]

Sigh - everything is racism.

You just gave us a list of the stuff that you didn't like from Obama. It was overwhelmingly a list of white identity grievance. Why shouldn't we conclude that it's racism when you are holding up a blinking neon sign telling us it is? Let's revisit that list:

* Proposed overhaul of nation's gun laws [LOL, this didn't happen]
* Proposed path to citizenship for 11M illegal immigrants [white grievance]
* Lois Lerner of his Administration ADMITS in a speech to the ABA that the IRS targets conservative groups [did not happen; was not true; just grievance]
* "Travon Marton could have been me." - [white grievance -- my God, he expressed empathy with a victim of lynching!]
* Reid implements the "nuclear option" limiting R's ability to filibuster judges [this is not remotely leftist]
* Iran deal - laid the groundwork for Oct 7th. [LOL]
* "I've got a pen and and I've got a phone" [no idea what this is about, but it certainly doesn't seem like a threat to the Republic]
* Secures release of traitor Bergdahl for 5 Taliban commanders [Trump freed 5000 Taliban prisoners and you don't say anything bad about that]
* Defers deportations for 4M illegal aliens [white grievance]
* Plans to normalize relations with Cuba [white grievance]
* vetoes Keystone pipeline [again your understanding of the law is comical for someone claiming to be a lawyer]

Notably absent from your list of complaints is anything that actually makes a difference to your life or anyone's life. Unless dignity for minorities affects your life, which I suspect strongly it does because it makes you unhappy.

See, my list of complaints about W are about incredibly big macro failures. He lied us into a disastrous war; failed to get Osama; and collapsed the world financial system. Those are significant. The complaints about Trump are similarly macro. What you've given is a list of absolute trivialities that have only one thing in common, and you've blown that nonsense up into the idea that Obama was some radical. Your dad probably thought MLK was a communist for exactly the same reason.

 

[finesse]

W did have one stand out moment. As the WSJ put it.

There could hardly have been a more indelicate gaffe. President Bush vowed on Sunday to "rid the world of evil-doers," then cautioned: "This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while."

I don't think I've ever heard a single statement of so few words so greatly change world opinion for so many people . Then the dumbass doubled down and invaded the wrong damned country.

 

[UNCatTech]

You’re not going to like my answer, but this was always the end goal for conservative intellectuals. Based on everything I know about your politics, you’d be considered a liberal anywhere else.

Conservatism was invented following the French Revolution. They want us to go back to a time of hierarchy and domination. A time when people knew their place. The Enlightenment and liberalism need to be killed in order for that to happen, let alone the New Deal.

People like Reagan were just willing fools.

IIRC, you travel a lot for work. If you’re into podcasts, check out Know Your Enemy. It is a podcast about conservative intellectual history. Download a few episodes and listen on the plane if you’re able; I think you’d get a lot out of it.

Is that podcast by Matthew Sitman?

 

[Paine]

Is that podcast by Matthew Sitman?

Yep it’s Sitman and Sam Adler-Bell. One of the best podcasts out there right now IMO.

 

[UNCatTech]

That all makes a ton of sense. I think from my perspective what has been the most difficult thing to stomach is the hypocrisy and inconsistency of today's Republican supporters. I know it's a popular refrain to say "I didn't leave the party, the party left me" or some variation of that. I don't think that's entirely true in my case- I definitely left the party because I've become more liberal in my views on several things, but I do think that is it way more true that the Republican Party moved much, much further away from me (and classical conservatism) than I moved away.

We've seemed to follow very similar political paths. I agree with everything you have posted so far. It's easy to become more liberal when you care about other people.

 

[SnoopRob]

You just gave us a list of the stuff that you didn't like from Obama. It was overwhelmingly a list of white identity grievance. Why shouldn't we conclude that it's racism when you are holding up a blinking neon sign telling us it is? Let's revisit that list:

* Proposed overhaul of nation's gun laws [LOL, this didn't happen]
* Proposed path to citizenship for 11M illegal immigrants [white grievance]
* Lois Lerner of his Administration ADMITS in a speech to the ABA that the IRS targets conservative groups [did not happen; was not true; just grievance]
* "Travon Marton could have been me." - [white grievance -- my God, he expressed empathy with a victim of lynching!]
* Reid implements the "nuclear option" limiting R's ability to filibuster judges [this is not remotely leftist]
* Iran deal - laid the groundwork for Oct 7th. [LOL]
* "I've got a pen and and I've got a phone" [no idea what this is about, but it certainly doesn't seem like a threat to the Republic]
* Secures release of traitor Bergdahl for 5 Taliban commanders [Trump freed 5000 Taliban prisoners and you don't say anything bad about that]
* Defers deportations for 4M illegal aliens [white grievance]
* Plans to normalize relations with Cuba [white grievance]
* vetoes Keystone pipeline [again your understanding of the law is comical for someone claiming to be a lawyer]

Ramrouser is a good example of the radicalization of Republicans. So much of this list is either things that didn't really happen (but he was told it did on Fox News or OAN or Breitbart or wherever) and the others are things that are considered "far left" because they are to the left of Mitt Romney.

It's sad what the Republican Party has come to when they were, at one time, very much a party with ideals and an intellectual wing.

 

[Centerpiece]

Some answers to the OP’s Question can be found here.
If you’re not familiar with Canadian psychology professor Bob Altemeyer and his empirical studies on Authoritarianism, you should be:

 

[hedge]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "open border".

I mean it in the same way the article from the libertarian Cato Institute lays it out...

 

[ZenMode]

I mean it in the same way the article from the libertarian Cato Institute lays it out...

No, I don't support that. We need to verify, via ID/Passport, who is entering the country.

 

[superrific]

Ramrouser is a good example of the radicalization of Republicans.

Maybe, or maybe they have always been like this. I mean, they mouth words like "I'm against all the debt and spending" but there's absolutely no outrage there. Whenever one of our Pubs gets angry, they don't talk about that. It's always border and trans. Their actions betray them. They make very clear what is most important to them. Then they complain when we connect the dots. LOL.

 

[UNCatTech]

There are two approaches to things like wealth and income. Conservatives, to varying degrees, don't want government interference.so, So, they don't support unions. Some might go as far as not supporting any kind of minimum wage. That is not the same as saying the GOAL of conservatism is "The rich should get richer", even if that is the end result in some situations.

Conservatism also is not toxic hate for minorities, the poor, women, etc. Conservatism is essentially not creating laws or policy favoring people based on the amount of melanin in your skin or not creating laws or policy to address an issue that is non-existent; the misogyny-based wage gap between men and women.

BTW, Republicans do the same crap with their demonization of the INTENT behind liberal policies.

So, you believe the wage gap for women is non existent?

And you believe that there weren't reasons to have affirmative action laws? Those were driven by mistreatment, unfair practices in hiring, and unequal pay and treatment in the work place.

The goal of the current conservatives is that the rich get richer, the leadership just tries to keep the minions from knowing.

 

[UNCatTech]

Maybe, or maybe they have always been like this. I mean, they mouth words like "I'm against all the debt and spending" but there's absolutely no outrage there. Whenever one of our Pubs gets angry, they don't talk about that. It's always border and trans. Their actions betray them. They make very clear what is most important to them. Then they complain when we connect the dots. LOL.

True, they bitch about the debt and spending, but the don't look at the history of which party increases the debt the most in the modern era (since Reagan).

 

[Ramrouser]

You just gave us a list of the stuff that you didn't like from Obama. It was overwhelmingly a list of white identity grievance. Why shouldn't we conclude that it's racism when you are holding up a blinking neon sign telling us it is? Let's revisit that list:

* Proposed overhaul of nation's gun laws [LOL, this didn't happen]
* Proposed path to citizenship for 11M illegal immigrants [white grievance]
* Lois Lerner of his Administration ADMITS in a speech to the ABA that the IRS targets conservative groups [did not happen; was not true; just grievance]
* "Travon Marton could have been me." - [white grievance -- my God, he expressed empathy with a victim of lynching!]
* Reid implements the "nuclear option" limiting R's ability to filibuster judges [this is not remotely leftist]
* Iran deal - laid the groundwork for Oct 7th. [LOL]
* "I've got a pen and and I've got a phone" [no idea what this is about, but it certainly doesn't seem like a threat to the Republic]
* Secures release of traitor Bergdahl for 5 Taliban commanders [Trump freed 5000 Taliban prisoners and you don't say anything bad about that]
* Defers deportations for 4M illegal aliens [white grievance]
* Plans to normalize relations with Cuba [white grievance]
* vetoes Keystone pipeline [again your understanding of the law is comical for someone claiming to be a lawyer]

Notably absent from your list of complaints is anything that actually makes a difference to your life or anyone's life. Unless dignity for minorities affects your life, which I suspect strongly it does because it makes you unhappy.

See, my list of complaints about W are about incredibly big macro failures. He lied us into a disastrous war; failed to get Osama; and collapsed the world financial system. Those are significant. The complaints about Trump are similarly macro. What you've given is a list of absolute trivialities that have only one thing in common, and you've blown that nonsense up into the idea that Obama was some radical. Your dad probably thought MLK was a communist for exactly the same reason.

Awfully convenient to simply label everything conservatives support as "white grievance." So I don't want 10.5B people flooding into the country illegally and that's racism? Cuba normalization, racism? Screaming racism from the mountaintops for literally every issue conservatives support is soo 2012. Nobody buys that anymore and conservatives no long cower in fear of being accused of it since the card has been played so often. Even black and Hispanic men are trending towards the GOP.

Not making a difference in anyone's life?; tell that to the family of Laken Riley. Guess they're racists too.

 

[UNCatTech]

You should really read my post. If you did, you'd see that my focus is on intent of an outcome, not just outcome.

Exactly and you are wrong about their intent.

 

[finesse]

Exactly and you are wrong about their intent.

If he wasn't , there would be a 12 lane highway through Hell.

 

[Ramrouser]

Appreciate the response and the back-and-forth on this. Also appreciate the questions- they're totally fair.

I wouldn't say that I feel that I've had any major "political conversion." I've absolutely moved leftward on several policy issues, but my moving leftward simply took me out of "hard core conservatism"- I was previously anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, and anti-immigration as my primary political positions- into something that is a lot more centrist, but would still be considered solidly conservative in every other part of the globe. If the political ideology scale is 0-100 with 0 being extreme far left and 100 being extreme far right, I'd reckon I went from somewhere in the 70-80 range in high school and college, to probably the 45-55 range these days. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever labeling myself a liberal if I thought that I was liberal. I don't see 'liberal' or 'conservative' as pejoratives and don't think less of anyone for being one or the other. For example, the vast majority of what John Fetterman says and a lot of the stances that he takes resonate with me.

As far as why I turned against Trump, I'd say it was a combination of things. I was initially offput by his comments in the aftermath of the tragedy in Charlottesville in 2017. The in 2018, I was even more offput by his comments disparaging American intelligence personnel and military members at the 2018 United States-Russia Summit in Helsinki. I still voted mostly Republican in the 2018 midterms. The last straws for me were in 2020: first with his behavior in the early onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in January, February, March, and April 2020. I thought that his words and his actions were completely beneath a POTUS and that he was sorely lacking the kind of leadership ability that is required of any POTUS in any national and global emergency. Second, his conduct in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder in June 2020 was reprehensible, specifically in using military personnel to physically assault and clear a crowd of protestors with rubber bullets and batons so that he could stage a photo op with an (upside down" Bible in front of St. John's Church. I was already leaning heavily into not supporting his reelection in November of that year, but that day in June sealed the deal for me. It was an unforgivable line to cross.

So, all of that to say, it wasn't some sudden and immediate light that came on for me where one day I was pro-Trump and the next I was anti-Trump. It was a slow, methodical move over the course of his first term, which then rapidly accelerated in 2020. If he had risen to the occasion and proven himself to be a presidential leader during the pandemic and during the race riots during the summer of 2020, I could have likely been convinced to hold my nose and vote for a second term. I'm not sure how long you've been around tis ZZLP community, but if you were around in, say, 2015-2018 or so, you'd have seen that I was actually one of the folks on here who would, if not outright defend Trump, would hand-wave or try to explain away his words and actions. I got taken behind the woodshed on plenty of occasions by plenty of longtime posters here with whom I now find myself aligned.

I'm sure that there are plenty of Republicans who, as you said (and perhaps you are even one of them), "hate Trump, with a passion, but still held their nose and voted for him last November." I definitely don't think that 77 million voters absolutely loved Donald Trump. But the difference between myself- as a former Republican- and those current Republicans, is that for me, I care much more about the overall prosperity and well-being of our country than I care about having to hold my nose and vote for "my party." I'm not nearly partisan enough to care about which party holds power as long as the power is being used to genuinely make America stronger, safer, and more prosperous for all Americans. I personally do not believe that Donald Trump and the current GOP are doing those things- I also understand that you probably very strongly disagree with me on that.

Thanks for the insightful response.

I'm a regular poster on the IC sports boards but I never posted on IC's ZZLP - only lurked occasionally.

 

[UNCatTech]

Because pretending to be a mind reader, and ascribing intent when you are in no position to do so, contributes to our current political divide.

Was affirmative action in liberal-run Ivy League universities INTENDED to deny some smart, high-scoring Asians the ability to go to those schools? If it is, then Dems are all a bunch of evil, racist SOBs, right?

These are not even related.