Why do we cater to the idea of a soul?

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UNCatTech said:
This is my thought process now.

So much different than when I attended the weekly indoctrination sessions. (No offense meant toward believers)
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I'll admit that I have always thought the reincarnation might be true. I have no reason to believe that except for a belief that it is the most fair of all belief systems. Not that I have had a bad life but I've been screwed in some ways especially if comparing myself to my siblings. I always thought they were smarter (though I am better at math/science but not well rounded), were better looking, healthier, had more outgoing personalities, etc. Having a child with level 3 Autism just reinforced that idea that there has to be something that brings fairness to the universe.

That is also why I work out 4-5 times a week. At least that is one thing I can control.

On a side note, when my son was born, I prayed that I wanted him to be healthy, athletic, and good looking. I literally prayed that I don't care how smart he is because I viewed the other things as being more important to success in life. Now I have a really good looking, 6'3", muscular 15 year old with severe Autism. Feel like I am in one of those stories where someone asks for something and gets exactly what they asked for but not what they intended.

I also prayed that my faith wasn't strong and that if I needed to be challenged then I would accept that. Didn't work. Just made me more disillusioned.
 
xCainx said:
That’s the very definition of faith—believing without proof. We don’t have proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet many people believe it’s almost inevitable. That’s because some things aren’t proven; they’re felt, sensed, or intuited.


What I think some people who lack faith struggle to understand is that you’re trying to quantify something that, by nature, is spiritual. If there is something greater—and I believe there is—it would be beyond anything humans can see, hear, or fully imagine. Think about it: we can’t even truly conceptualize the size of the universe, let alone what it’s expanding into. And if there’s order to the universe—if the laws of physics apply universally—then who or what established that order?


And then there are near-death experiences (NDEs). Sure, skeptics can argue they’re just brain chemistry—endorphins, hallucinations, or neurological phenomena as the brain shuts down. But that doesn’t fully explain the patterns we see across cultures, languages, and belief systems. Many people report out-of-body experiences where they accurately describe events, conversations, and places they couldn’t have possibly seen from their physical bodies. Some report seeing or hearing their families from miles away—details that are later verified. If consciousness can exist outside the body, even briefly, what does that suggest?


You can respond with a “yeah, but…” and lean on science—and I respect science—but the spiritual doesn’t operate in the same realm. Some things we just can’t measure, prove, or fully comprehend. Maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe it’s beyond us.

To me, it feels like it takes even more faith—a greater leap—to believe that death is truly the end. Maybe it’s something deeper, a kind of pull in the soul, that suggests otherwise. Something unspoken that whispers there’s more.
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That's fine if you want to believe it but it doesn't lend any authority to your opinions or beliefs or any right for you to expect anyone else to be governed by them.

Personally, I think it's a feeble attempt to believe that humans matter in a universe that is too large and old for logic to accept that they do.
 
xCainx said:
That’s the very definition of faith—believing without proof. We don’t have proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet many people believe it’s almost inevitable. That’s because some things aren’t proven; they’re felt, sensed, or intuited.


What I think some people who lack faith struggle to understand is that you’re trying to quantify something that, by nature, is spiritual. If there is something greater—and I believe there is—it would be beyond anything humans can see, hear, or fully imagine. Think about it: we can’t even truly conceptualize the size of the universe, let alone what it’s expanding into. And if there’s order to the universe—if the laws of physics apply universally—then who or what established that order?


And then there are near-death experiences (NDEs). Sure, skeptics can argue they’re just brain chemistry—endorphins, hallucinations, or neurological phenomena as the brain shuts down. But that doesn’t fully explain the patterns we see across cultures, languages, and belief systems. Many people report out-of-body experiences where they accurately describe events, conversations, and places they couldn’t have possibly seen from their physical bodies. Some report seeing or hearing their families from miles away—details that are later verified. If consciousness can exist outside the body, even briefly, what does that suggest?


You can respond with a “yeah, but…” and lean on science—and I respect science—but the spiritual doesn’t operate in the same realm. Some things we just can’t measure, prove, or fully comprehend. Maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe it’s beyond us.

To me, it feels like it takes even more faith—a greater leap—to believe that death is truly the end. Maybe it’s something deeper, a kind of pull in the soul, that suggests otherwise. Something unspoken that whispers there’s more.
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Link to your favorite NDE study that demonstrates consciousness can exist outside the body. I'm interested to read.
 
xCainx said:
That’s the very definition of faith—believing without proof. We don’t have proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet many people believe it’s almost inevitable. That’s because some things aren’t proven; they’re felt, sensed, or intuited.


What I think some people who lack faith struggle to understand is that you’re trying to quantify something that, by nature, is spiritual. If there is something greater—and I believe there is—it would be beyond anything humans can see, hear, or fully imagine. Think about it: we can’t even truly conceptualize the size of the universe, let alone what it’s expanding into. And if there’s order to the universe—if the laws of physics apply universally—then who or what established that order?


And then there are near-death experiences (NDEs). Sure, skeptics can argue they’re just brain chemistry—endorphins, hallucinations, or neurological phenomena as the brain shuts down. But that doesn’t fully explain the patterns we see across cultures, languages, and belief systems. Many people report out-of-body experiences where they accurately describe events, conversations, and places they couldn’t have possibly seen from their physical bodies. Some report seeing or hearing their families from miles away—details that are later verified. If consciousness can exist outside the body, even briefly, what does that suggest?


You can respond with a “yeah, but…” and lean on science—and I respect science—but the spiritual doesn’t operate in the same realm. Some things we just can’t measure, prove, or fully comprehend. Maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe it’s beyond us.

To me, it feels like it takes even more faith—a greater leap—to believe that death is truly the end. Maybe it’s something deeper, a kind of pull in the soul, that suggests otherwise. Something unspoken that whispers there’s more.
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I disagree with the statement that belief in aliens is faith, because of the math, with the number of known galaxies and planets, the probability supports there being other places with life similar to Earth. I don't see it the same for a God. A God does take faith, I agree with you there.
 
UNCatTech said:
I disagree with the statement that belief in aliens is faith, because of the math, with the number of known galaxies and planets, the probability supports there being other places with life similar to Earth. I don't see it the same for a God. A God does take faith, I agree with you there.
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I don’t mean to go too far down the rabbit hole, but my point is this: there’s an almost infinite amount we don’t know—things we can’t even begin to conceive. Take the origins of the universe, for example. Some say it’s always existed. But can any of us truly comprehend infinity? The very idea of something that has no beginning defies our understanding. And if such a concept is even possible, then who’s to say there aren’t realities or forces far more unfathomable than an eternal universe?


That was the heart of what I was getting at - a metaphor of explaining intelligent life elsewhere. Layered on top of this mystery is the fact that we still don’t have a shred of concrete evidence that intelligent life exists elsewhere. As the Fermi Paradox points out, the universe is vast, ancient, and filled with an estimated 200 sextillion stars—many with planets that could support life. Statistically, intelligent civilizations should have emerged many times over. The Milky Way alone has 100 to 400 billion stars, most with planetary systems. If even a tiny fraction of those planets produced intelligent life capable of developing technology, the galaxy should be full of signs: radio transmissions, megastructures, or interstellar probes. And yet—silence. After decades of listening, searching, and scanning, we’ve found nothing. No contact. No artifacts. No unmistakable signs. It’s one of the greatest mysteries in science: so much potential, and yet the universe appears quiet. It was a metaphor of my great point.


I’m not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. I don’t claim to have answers—I’m just as small and uncertain as anyone else. I can’t prove anything spiritual, just like we can’t yet prove extraterrestrial life exists. But the sheer magnitude of the unknown gives me pause. And to dismiss someone’s belief as foolish or irrational—whether it’s about faith, purpose, or the existence of something greater—feels dishonest, especially when we all exist inside a cosmos that remains so overwhelmingly mysterious.
 
xCainx said:
I don’t mean to go too far down the rabbit hole, but my point is this: there’s an almost infinite amount we don’t know—things we can’t even begin to conceive. Take the origins of the universe, for example. Some say it’s always existed. But can any of us truly comprehend infinity? The very idea of something that has no beginning defies our understanding. And if such a concept is even possible, then who’s to say there aren’t realities or forces far more unfathomable than an eternal universe?
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I have always found the idea of infinity to make more sense than the idea of space or time starting or ending. The latter just makes my brain ask but what about before or what is beyond the end of space?

I recognize that is likely just a limitation in humans. Not saying it is wrong to say that either can stop or start. Just saying that while the idea of infinity is hard it is easier on my brain than the alternative.

Also, as a side point, I don't think the big bang is physicists attempt to explain where everything came from. At least that is my understanding of it. It is just the extrapolation of all of the evidence points to a point where a big bang happened. What was before that? Did time even exist? I don't think the theory is meant to answer those questions though I could be wrong.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
I have always found the idea of infinity to make more sense than the idea of space or time starting or ending. The latter just makes my brain ask but what about before or what is beyond the end of space?

I recognize that is likely just a limitation in humans. Not saying it is wrong to say that either can stop or start. Just saying that while the idea of infinity is hard it is easier on my brain than the alternative.

Also, as a side point, I don't think the big bang is physicists attempt to explain where everything came from. At least that is my understanding of it. It is just the extrapolation of all of the evidence points to a point where a big bang happened. What was before that? Did time even exist? I don't think the theory is meant to answer those questions though I could be wrong.
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I don’t think my mind can truly grasp the concept of infinity—or the idea of something with no beginning and no end. But that’s precisely the point when we speak of the universe, the soul, or the divine. Philosophical infinity isn’t just a number that stretches forever. It’s the notion of something utterly unbounded—in scope, power, time, or essence. It’s not about counting endlessly—it’s about whether anything can truly exist without limit, and what that would mean for reality itself. This opens the door to profound metaphysical questions: Can infinity actually exist? Or is it just a placeholder—a word we use when we reach the outer edge of human understanding?

The truth is, we throw around words like infinite or eternal in the abstract, but we rarely stop to consider what they really mean. We’re wired for the finite—birth and death, beginnings and endings. We can imagine “very large,” but limitless? That breaks our mental framework.

Infinity challenges the logic we rely on. Consider Zeno’s paradox: if you keep halving the distance to your goal, you should never arrive. Yet somehow, you do. These ideas show us that infinity doesn’t obey normal logic—and yet, it can still describe something real.

Which brings us back to the original and deepest questions—about God, the soul, and the universe. The idea that something could actually be infinite—complete, timeless, all-encompassing—is a way many traditions have tried to understand the divine. God, as conceived in much of theology, is not simply powerful but infinitely so: beyond time, beyond comprehension. And if the soul is eternal—if it originates from or is tethered to that infinite source—then maybe we’re not just passing shadows in a meaningless void. So what does it mean if the universe truly is infinite? Does that make us insignificant, or does it make us part of something greater than we can ever comprehend?

I don’t claim to have the answers—obviously. But I do know this: there’s enough I don’t know—and will never know in this life—that humility is the only honest response. And that’s where faith enters. Not blind certainty, but a quiet acknowledgment that some truths might exist beyond the reach of reason alone. To mock that kind of faith—to call it weakness or escapism—feels less like insight and more like hubris. Especially when it’s rooted in the illusion that we already know all there is to know. We don’t. And maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe the very act of wondering is part of the point.
 
My take is that if the universe was a stage play, we are neither actors, stagehands or spectators. We're the dust in the footlights and equally important to the event in progress.

It's not that there can't be, It's that it can't actually matter.
 
xCainx said:
I don’t think my mind can truly grasp the concept of infinity—or the idea of something with no beginning and no end. But that’s precisely the point when we speak of the universe, the soul, or the divine. Philosophical infinity isn’t just a number that stretches forever. It’s the notion of something utterly unbounded—in scope, power, time, or essence. It’s not about counting endlessly—it’s about whether anything can truly exist without limit, and what that would mean for reality itself. This opens the door to profound metaphysical questions: Can infinity actually exist? Or is it just a placeholder—a word we use when we reach the outer edge of human understanding?

The truth is, we throw around words like infinite or eternal in the abstract, but we rarely stop to consider what they really mean. We’re wired for the finite—birth and death, beginnings and endings. We can imagine “very large,” but limitless? That breaks our mental framework.

Infinity challenges the logic we rely on. Consider Zeno’s paradox: if you keep halving the distance to your goal, you should never arrive. Yet somehow, you do. These ideas show us that infinity doesn’t obey normal logic—and yet, it can still describe something real.

Which brings us back to the original and deepest questions—about God, the soul, and the universe. The idea that something could actually be infinite—complete, timeless, all-encompassing—is a way many traditions have tried to understand the divine. God, as conceived in much of theology, is not simply powerful but infinitely so: beyond time, beyond comprehension. And if the soul is eternal—if it originates from or is tethered to that infinite source—then maybe we’re not just passing shadows in a meaningless void. So what does it mean if the universe truly is infinite? Does that make us insignificant, or does it make us part of something greater than we can ever comprehend?

I don’t claim to have the answers—obviously. But I do know this: there’s enough I don’t know—and will never know in this life—that humility is the only honest response. And that’s where faith enters. Not blind certainty, but a quiet acknowledgment that some truths might exist beyond the reach of reason alone. To mock that kind of faith—to call it weakness or escapism—feels less like insight and more like hubris. Especially when it’s rooted in the illusion that we already know all there is to know. We don’t. And maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe the very act of wondering is part of the point.
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What has always stirred my thoughts about infinity and the afterlife is this:

In the boundless continuum of eternity, our lives are but the briefest flicker—less than a breath in the vast silence of time. And yet, within that vanishing instant, we are measured, judged, and assigned a destiny that stretches endlessly beyond comprehension. How can something so finite determine the course of the infinite?
 
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Milk and Cookies said:
Link to your favorite NDE study that demonstrates consciousness can exist outside the body. I'm interested to read.
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I don't think such a study is possible. That's the great debate about consciousness: is it the result of brain functionality or is the brain just a gateway to experiencing consciousness that is always present.
 
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Lando said:
I find ideas like the big bang far less baffling than an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient creator that made gay people just so he can hate them.

Who knows, maybe that is the truth of things. Existence isn’t obligated to fit within the bounds of my imagination.
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At the very least, if there IS an "god" being, it's not of those that are the result of man's imagination. No Zeus. No Yahweh. No Poseidon.

The Big Bang makes sense until you consider that the speed at which the universe is expanding is increasing....
 
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an0maly said:
The only idea of an after-life I have ever come across that had any appeal was in the remarkably calm and charming film After Life, from director Hirokazu Kore-eda. The idea there was that you could re-live one singular wonderful memory from your life, over and over, forever. It's absurd, but a very charming idea. Outside of this, the notion of an infinitely long life is ultimately repellant, and would either be infinite repeating or infinite nonsense, as this is profoundly bound to the Hilbert's Hotel paradoxes on infinity. Life has meaning within boundaries of time and of events, and could not have it otherwise.
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This is funny timing — I’m in a movie club with a few friends (similar to a book club, choosing two movies to watch in the month and then getting together over food and drinks to dive into them. This month’s movies are Taste of Cherry and After Life. And Camus’ Myth of Sisyphus as short supplemental reading.

All would be great for those interested in a topic like this one.

 
xCainx said:
Not blind certainty, but a quiet acknowledgment that some truths might exist beyond the reach of reason alone.
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Which makes sense, given that our reason evolved in order to help us do things like catch bugs and varmints, rather than plumb the mysteries of the space/time ouroboros.
 
xCainx said:
That’s the very definition of faith—believing without proof. We don’t have proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe, yet many people believe it’s almost inevitable. That’s because some things aren’t proven; they’re felt, sensed, or intuited.


What I think some people who lack faith struggle to understand is that you’re trying to quantify something that, by nature, is spiritual. If there is something greater—and I believe there is—it would be beyond anything humans can see, hear, or fully imagine. Think about it: we can’t even truly conceptualize the size of the universe, let alone what it’s expanding into. And if there’s order to the universe—if the laws of physics apply universally—then who or what established that order?


And then there are near-death experiences (NDEs). Sure, skeptics can argue they’re just brain chemistry—endorphins, hallucinations, or neurological phenomena as the brain shuts down. But that doesn’t fully explain the patterns we see across cultures, languages, and belief systems. Many people report out-of-body experiences where they accurately describe events, conversations, and places they couldn’t have possibly seen from their physical bodies. Some report seeing or hearing their families from miles away—details that are later verified. If consciousness can exist outside the body, even briefly, what does that suggest?


You can respond with a “yeah, but…” and lean on science—and I respect science—but the spiritual doesn’t operate in the same realm. Some things we just can’t measure, prove, or fully comprehend. Maybe we’re not meant to. Maybe it’s beyond us.

To me, it feels like it takes even more faith—a greater leap—to believe that death is truly the end. Maybe it’s something deeper, a kind of pull in the soul, that suggests otherwise. Something unspoken that whispers there’s more.
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This is an aside, but it's worth noting that what you've offered is a Protestant-inflected notion of faith as an act of cognition. Historically, faith more closely resembles what we mean by the word "faithful." If your wife or husband is unfaithful to you, it's not for lack of belief that you're their spouse. Instead, faith describes action, first and foremost.
 
breepf said:
This is an aside, but it's worth noting that what you've offered is a Protestant-inflected notion of faith as an act of cognition. Historically, faith more closely resembles what we mean by the word "faithful." If your wife or husband is unfaithful to you, it's not for lack of belief that you're their spouse. Instead, faith describes action, first and foremost.
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I didn't really know that...that's super interesting. Thanks bree
 
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