2024 Pre-Election Political Polls | POLL - Trump would have had 7 point lead over Biden

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 6K
  • Views: 144K
  • Politics 
Actually it seems like a big Kamala win would play into their "see, they HAD to have cheated" narrative more than a close victory would. Big popular vote win means nothing, that's expected, they'll just point to California and New York and say it all came from the big liberal states and doesn't matter...
Unless Trump wins a "Reagan in '84" style victory, Trump and Co will claim that the Dems cheated. It's a feature, not a bug, for Pubs to claim that the election is rigged against Trump.

The outcome doesn't matter to their claims because facts don't matter to their claims, they'll bend whatever facts they can find and the "alternative facts" they can manufacture to fit the narrative they want to claim. It's not about truth or logic, it's about creating a narrative that fits their worldview and allows them to (a) try to steal the election if Trump doesn't win and (b) reinforces the overarching narrative that Dems are evil.
 
Dem campaigns have been doing that for a while now. As far back as I can remember at least. They know Dem voters are prone to panicking apparently lol
It's not that Dems are prone to panicking, those Dems are almost certainly going to the polls no matter what.

The real basis behind this is that as the Dem tent is large and quite varied, the conventional wisdom is that Dems need higher turnout to win. They need to ensure that the Dem-leaning but unreliable voter feels the need to go to the polls to ensure the Dem wins and to ensure that the progressives at the margins of the party don't fall off to 3rd party votes because they think the Dem doesn't need their vote.

Now, this conventional wisdom concerning higher turnout has been turned on its ear a bit by Trump bringing some Pub-leaning unreliable voters to the polls more consistently than previous Pub nominees. So now it not only matters how high turnout is, but whose unreliable voters turn out. But being behind in the polls is still reasonably effective in attempting to turn our Dem unreliable voters and Dem-leans who could go 3rd party, so Dems still focus on it where they can.
 
It's not that Dems are prone to panicking, those Dems are almost certainly going to the polls no matter what.

The real basis behind this is that as the Dem tent is large and quite varied, the conventional wisdom is that Dems need higher turnout to win. They need to ensure that the Dem-leaning but unreliable voter feels the need to go to the polls to ensure the Dem wins and to ensure that the progressives at the margins of the party don't fall off to 3rd party votes because they think the Dem doesn't need their vote.

Now, this conventional wisdom concerning higher turnout has been turned on its ear a bit by Trump bringing some Pub-leaning unreliable voters to the polls more consistently than previous Pub nominees. So now it not only matters how high turnout is, but whose unreliable voters turn out. But being behind in the polls is still reasonably effective in attempting to turn our Dem unreliable voters and Dem-leans who could go 3rd party, so Dems still focus on it where they can.
I don’t think those campaign emails are targeting Dem leans or unreliable voters. The vast majority of those fundraising emails are designed to cause anxiety amongst Democrats who are 100% going to vote and vote for Dems. They are designed to get people to click through and donate due to fear. It’s effective if annoying.
 
This is a really, really, really good read. It's a bit long, but it's well worth the time.


Read the whole thing- seriously, it's really good- but the key TL;DR takeaway is that this guy forecasts the 4 most common Electoral Vote outcomes as:

  1. Harris 319
  2. Harris 303
  3. Harris 276
  4. Harris 292
 
I don’t think those campaign emails are targeting Dem leans or unreliable voters. The vast majority of those fundraising emails are designed to cause anxiety amongst Democrats who are 100% going to vote and vote for Dems. They are designed to get people to click through and donate due to fear. It’s effective if annoying.
Or they're designed to get folks to canvass in-person or by phone or to encourage their unreliable or progressive family, friends, and neighbors to go vote.

It certainly is a fundraising tactic, but it also involves a GOTV strategy.
 
Or they're designed to get folks to canvass in-person or by phone or to encourage their unreliable or progressive family, friends, and neighbors to go vote.

It certainly is a fundraising tactic, but it also involves a GOTV strategy.
Could be. Sometimes they include info about voting/GOTV and sometimes they don’t.

There has been a glut of fake PACs sending out fundraising emails that look like they’re donating money to Dem campaigns but actually pocketing it.

I’d wager that, especially this close the election, messages directly from Dem candidates or campaigns are trying to get out the vote.

These PACs are usually just pure panic fundraising though.
 
Polling margin of error vs. the poll's expected voter turnout model.

Maybe someone can explain the difference? I tend to think that if the poll's turnout model is wrong then the margin of error doesn't mean anything. But I could be wrong.
Polling margin of error is the statistical uncertainly that is created by sampling a smaller group that is intended to be representative of a larger group. The MOE is based on sample size versus population size and is done via a mathematical calculation. You can play with the sample size and population size inputs via a MOE calculator to see the effects: Margin of Error Calculator

On a related note, MOE is why, if you dive into the crosstabs of a poll where they break the results down by voter characteristics (gender, race/ethnicity, party ID, etc) there will often be no results provided for groups that aren't reasonably large within the polled group. If you don't have enough respondents from a particular group, the MOE is so large that the polled group isn't considered "representative" at that level and therefore results typically aren't provided.

Expected voter turnout is something that pollsters have to model (aka, make an educated guess at) as part of their polling methodology. Note: This is only true for "Likely Voter (LV)" polls, "Registered Voter (RV)" polls do not have to model turnout because they use the party ID percentages of how voters are registered in whatever area (typically either region or state, occasionally congressional district) they're polling. Turnout used to be relatively stable, especially on the Pub side, and so most pollsters were in reasonably close agreement of what turnout would look like (not necessarily in a colluding sort of way, more that with turnout being relatively stable it was far easier to get a reasonably correct answer and so most had similar answers).

Two things have happened regarding turnout & polling...

The first is that turnout has become much more unpredictable as Trump has brought new folks into his base who are unreliable voters and as the extremism in our political system has brought out more unreliable voters on both sides of the aisle. Trump introducing unreliable voters into the Republican Party seems to have played a significant role in Pubs under-performing in midterm elections in 2018 and 2022, as many of these "Trump voters" don't seem to vote when Trump isn't one the ballot. For the purposes of polling, it has made things much, much tougher for legitimate polling firms doing Likely Voter polls because it has made modeling turnout much more difficult. Do you expect unreliable Pubs to turn out? Unreliable Dems? Both? Neither? How polling firms estimate likely turnout determines how they weight the responses they've received from doing polling which directly impacts the results of their polls. After polling firms missed in 2016, many adjusted moving forward under the idea that there were "silent Trump voters" who either wouldn't admit they would vote for Trump/Republicans or polling largely missed altogether in their samples. But then in later elections that caused many polls to miss results by overstating Pub support and so now pollsters are divided on how to properly model turnout, leading to more varied results than in pre-2018 elections.

The second is that biased pollsters, namely right-wing polling firms who want to create biased polls showing better results for Trump and Pubs, have figured out that their turnout model is an easy way to put their thumb on the scale for Trump and other Pubs. Simply have your turnout model show more Pub-leans and less Dem-leans and, voila, a poll where the results instantly move toward Pub success. Because of this use of turnout modeling, modeling across various polls have become even more varied/uneven than among neutral pollsters, creating more uncertainty in terms of polls.

I hope that gives a good overview of MOE and voter turnout modeling. Polling is an interesting subject, if you take the time to look into it.
 
This is a really, really, really good read. It's a bit long, but it's well worth the time.


Read the whole thing- seriously, it's really good- but the key TL;DR takeaway is that this guy forecasts the 4 most common Electoral Vote outcomes as:

  1. Harris 319
  2. Harris 303
  3. Harris 276
  4. Harris 292
From that guy's keyboard to God's monitor.
 

I have no particular opinion of this Bouzy fellow, but I can tell you with certainty that this analysis is shit. That would be true even if the vote timing wasn't thrown way out of whack by hurricanes. There's no such thing as "this point in the voting period" -- especially since we have no idea who these voters will be actually voting for. Will there be significant #s of Dems voting R? Almost surely -- that's been the case throughout the South for generations. Vice versa? Probably, but perhaps to a lesser extent. We don't know. Which is why, if we need to look at something right now to gauge the state of the race, look at polls. Looking at returned ballots tells you nothing.
 
I have no particular opinion of this Bouzy fellow, but I can tell you with certainty that this analysis is shit. That would be true even if the vote timing wasn't thrown way out of whack by hurricanes. There's no such thing as "this point in the voting period" -- especially since we have no idea who these voters will be actually voting for. Will there be significant #s of Dems voting R? Almost surely -- that's been the case throughout the South for generations. Vice versa? Probably, but perhaps to a lesser extent. We don't know. Which is why, if we need to look at something right now to gauge the state of the race, look at polls. Looking at returned ballots tells you nothing.
This guy is good. He nailed the 2022 elections.
 


That’s a change from September’s NBC News poll, which found Harris leading Trump by 5 points, 49%-44%, though that result was within the margin of error.

Different polls different years, but on October 15, 2020, the NBC poll had Biden +11 nationally, 53-42.
 
Back
Top