American political violence — Is there an off-ramp?

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lawtig02 said:
I think a massively catastrophic major recession/depression that is clearly tied to Trump’s insane economic policies could really change the balance of power for a while. And that seems entirely possible.

But for long term stability, we MUST have a more balanced Supreme Court that actually believes in separation of powers and checks and balances.
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I would settle for a supreme court that believes in the constitution and rule of law.
 
nycfan said:
In a moment of heightened (and it feels like accelerating) political extremism and violence, is there an off-ramp?

Turning the other cheek is portrayed as capitulation to naziism or communism or whatever ism even for relatively minor insults.

How do we bring down the rhetorical temperature? Or perhaps some think the question is should we do so?

The exact same day (about an hour apart in time) that Kirk was assassinated by a young man radicalized by some hatred of Kirk so intense that it led him to plan and carry out the murder, a 16-year-old boy was so thoroughly radicalized that he went through reload after reload of ammo trying to kill his classmates before turning the gun on himself. The main thing that may have limited the casualties was that he only had access to a handgun instead of a more high powered firearm.

Whatever his political or other motivations, the guy who killed Kirk followed certain behaviors of other radicalized mass murderers, including etching symbols on his bullets.

And the head of the FBI offered a frankly odd sign-off to Kirk (“we have the watch and I’ll see you in Valhalla”), that was presumably unintentionally but nonetheless eerily similar to the suicide note of the Christchurch mass killer (“I will see you all in Valhalla”). I’m willing to assume that Kash was just engaging in cosplay based on Avengers movies or maybe cobbling together tough guy bro talk he hears from marines and he is too incompetent to be aware of the Christchurch killer’s sign off.

But a guy in that position ought to be a lot more circumspect about his rhetoric.

So, what can we do? What should we do?

Can we even have a constructive dialogue about this that won’t immediately devolve into some version of Trump’s [/paraphrasing] radicals on my side are justified and radicals in the other side are evil [/end] framing?
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There has to be law and order, education, and modeling compassion and empathy. If Trump had been jailed and a younger version of Biden had been in office, we might have avoided what we're looking at now.

First off, Democrats need to gain full control of the federal government (and as many state governments as possible). Republicans have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely incapable of governing. The lawless Supreme Court should be expanded. Citizens United, Heller, Dobbs, presidential immunity, and other horrible decisions from this rogue court need to be quickly overturned. Fox and the conservative media sphere should be sued daily until they stop intentionally lying and defaming. Serious discussions and legislation should address immigration. "Bad hombres" have no home here. Good, hard-working folks should have a path to citizenship. Let's stabilize countries that force their citizens to migrate to the U.S.

Education must be supported from kindergarten to graduate school. We desperately need smarter people to lead us into a potentially perilous future.

Let's take better care of one another. Stop obsessing about yourself. Help your neighbor. Support and expand collective action for its ability to bring us together and get things done.

Just a start here, but you've got to walk before you can run.
 
We were set on the path to inevitable political violence when Trump pardoned the January 6th insurrectionists.

That was a very explicit statement that political violence will not be punished anymore, provided it's done for the benefit of Trump.

The off-ramp was Kamala Harris.
 
www.nbcnews.com

Alleged Charlie Kirk assassin's roommate 'shocked' by shooting, has been 'very cooperative,' governor says

Republican Gov. Spencer Cox also said the suspect is not cooperating with authorities.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

The governor also said he could not “emphasize enough the damage that social media and the internet is doing to all of us.” Powerful companies “have figured out how to hack our brains, get us addicted to outrage,” he added.

Cox urged people to use their own agency to move the country away from the brink, rather than waiting for a political figure to show the path forward.

“People keep waiting for somebody to lead us out of this. And I think that’s a mistake,” Cox said. “I don’t think any one person, certainly not a governor, I don’t think a president, I don’t think anyone can change the trajectory of this. It truly is about every single one of us.”

“But again, I don’t know why we feel like we need to take our cues, that we as Americans have to get up in the morning and decide how we’re going to react or act based on what the president says, or what a governor says, or what anyone else says,” Cox said.
 
Every day is an opportunity to take the off-ramp from rising political violence in our country. The question is not "if" we'll have the opportunity, the question is "Will we take it?"

I essentially see no way that said off-ramp will be taken in the near to medium-term future barring an outlier event that somehow completely resets the political discussion in this country.

The Republican Party has made it clear that they want political violence as long as the victims are immigrants, people of color, the LGBTQ community, academics...essentially anyone outside the Republican Party. Appeals to and justification for political violence against minorities and Dems is functionally written into the DNA of the Republican Party at this point and it will take either an outlier event of unfathomable significance or a lot of work over a long time for the Republican Party to reform their party.

The Democratic Party has tried taking the "adults in the room" approach during Trump's first term in office and we all know that it accomplished nothing of great value. In response, there is now a rising movement within the Democratic Party to meet the political violence of the right with a willingness to engage in political violence - at least at a verbal or potential level - from the left.

I believe that Super's "prisoner's dilemma" theory is essentially correct at this point, with the caveat that one of the prisoners has a grudge against the other and is more than willing to go to prison himself as long as the other prisoner serves as long of a sentence as possible.

I really have no idea how we get out of our current situation except hope to keep the damage as limited as possible and that something happens to pull us back from the brink.
 
nycfan said:
In a moment of heightened (and it feels like accelerating) political extremism and violence, is there an off-ramp?

Turning the other cheek is portrayed as capitulation to naziism or communism or whatever ism even for relatively minor insults.

How do we bring down the rhetorical temperature? Or perhaps some think the question is should we do so?

The exact same day (about an hour apart in time) that Kirk was assassinated by a young man radicalized by some hatred of Kirk so intense that it led him to plan and carry out the murder, a 16-year-old boy was so thoroughly radicalized that he went through reload after reload of ammo trying to kill his classmates before turning the gun on himself. The main thing that may have limited the casualties was that he only had access to a handgun instead of a more high powered firearm.

Whatever his political or other motivations, the guy who killed Kirk followed certain behaviors of other radicalized mass murderers, including etching symbols on his bullets.

And the head of the FBI offered a frankly odd sign-off to Kirk (“we have the watch and I’ll see you in Valhalla”), that was presumably unintentionally but nonetheless eerily similar to the suicide note of the Christchurch mass killer (“I will see you all in Valhalla”). I’m willing to assume that Kash was just engaging in cosplay based on Avengers movies or maybe cobbling together tough guy bro talk he hears from marines and he is too incompetent to be aware of the Christchurch killer’s sign off.

But a guy in that position ought to be a lot more circumspect about his rhetoric.

So, what can we do? What should we do?

Can we even have a constructive dialogue about this that won’t immediately devolve into some version of Trump’s [/paraphrasing] radicals on my side are justified and radicals in the other side are evil [/end] framing?
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Just realized that I was looking too far down the road with my response.

ASAP the guilty perpetrators of January 6 must be fully punished. All of them, especially the commanders, planners, and plotters.

It is interesting to imagine whether or not we would be where we are today if Nixon had been made to stand trial and if convicted, suffer the punishment.
 
I would like to see 85% of the eligible voters vote
Now I may be sorely disappointed at the outcome-but can we play Democracy please ?
Today the President etc gets elected by winning something like 25% of eligible voters
 
UNCMSinLS said:
There has to be law and order, education, and modeling compassion and empathy. If Trump had been jailed and a younger version of Biden had been in office, we might have avoided what we're looking at now.

First off, Democrats need to gain full control of the federal government (and as many state governments as possible). Republicans have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely incapable of governing. The lawless Supreme Court should be expanded. Citizens United, Heller, Dobbs, presidential immunity, and other horrible decisions from this rogue court need to be quickly overturned. Fox and the conservative media sphere should be sued daily until they stop intentionally lying and defaming. Serious discussions and legislation should address immigration. "Bad hombres" have no home here. Good, hard-working folks should have a path to citizenship. Let's stabilize countries that force their citizens to migrate to the U.S.

Education must be supported from kindergarten to graduate school. We desperately need smarter people to lead us into a potentially perilous future.

Let's take better care of one another. Stop obsessing about yourself. Help your neighbor. Support and expand collective action for its ability to bring us together and get things done.

Just a start here, but you've got to walk before you can run.
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Agreed, but I don't see any way that Democrats get back full control of the federal government anytime soon. The Supreme Court is likely locked up for the GOP for a good many years yet, there are more red than blue states which makes winning back the Senate (and especially winning a working majority) extremely difficult, and with increased gerrymandering in red states it's also getting harder for Democrats to win back control there as well.

As for education, as long as we allow vast amounts of public school money to be diverted to vouchers, allow parents (no matter how unqualified) to either homeschool their kids with a fundamentalist, anti-science curriculum or send them to a fundamentalist "Christian" private school for the same purpose, then that's not going to improve anytime soon either. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I don't see those things happening, at least not in my lifetime.
 
“… People are foolish… they are stupid children, they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but do not know how to do good. The whole land shall be a desolation… this earth shall mourn…”
 
Centerpiece said:
“… People are foolish… they are stupid children, they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but do not know how to do good. The whole land shall be a desolation… this earth shall mourn…”
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They do know how to do good. They just often choose not to.
 
donbosco said:
I can only look to other times of great polarization that we made it through to the other side...

The War for Independence
The Civil War
The Civil Rights Movement
The Vietnam War

There were other lesser schisms...in fact, we've always been at odds with one another it appears as we look back over the historical record. This is one of the most telling reality checks that I get as I work in various ways in Newspaper.com.

A lot of damage, destruction, and death in our past.
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💯
 
farce© said:
I would feel much better about it if we had a President who could be a leader in the process of bringing down the temperature and reaching out for reconciliation. But I suspect even Trump supporters will admit that is not a role he will ever accept. He is an antagonist and will only make matters worse. I truly do not see an off-ramp with Trump as President, especially given the people he has chosen to surround himself with. There is not a peacemaker in this administration.
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💯
 
nycfan said:
Do you think a cool the rhetoric / reach across the aisle candidate could win the nomination for Democrats or Republicans in 2028?

If not, and both sides run a flamethrower, could an independent heal the divide type candidate have a legitimate chance to win a state?
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1) No. “A cool the rhetoric/reach across the aisle” approach or candidate won’t work at a Presidential or major statewide election level.

Americans for decades have said they hate negative politics; the problem is they respond to negative politics.

2) An independent running on the “let’s be nice to each other” platform struggles from at least three fronts:
  • “Let’s be nice to one another” isn’t a winning message.
  • That person is an independent. The Independent is not winning SOLID red or blue states. At best, the Independent wins states such as MN, MI, WI, NV, AZ, PA…..and maybe NC, VA, and GA. I doubt the Independent wins any of those states. Even if the Independent wins ALL of those states and sends the election into the House, the Independent has no or virtually no votes in the House. The Republican wins.
  • If a billionaire or cadre of billionaires are willing to fund a candidate sufficiently to challenge the Democratic and Republican nominees, that “Independent” is either going to be under the thumb(s) of the billionaire(s) or he is going to be a charismatic super-billionaire who can fund himself (it’ll have to be a straight white male). The billionaire(s) won’t be happy with a “Kumbaya, Let’s all get along campaign.”
 
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