Aphantasia and the Mind's Eye

[sringwal]

This is interesting because I do have very visual memories. I see the images in the back of my mind but can't physically see them if that makes any sense. It is as if the rest of my mind is responding to the visual image as if it exists but the part of my brain that actually generates the visual image is not doing so. I didn't know some people actually see things like the apple.

All of that said, I am different from you in that I am very visual and not language oriented. I'm embarrassed to say that I have never taken up reading as a hobby. Ever since I was a child, it always seemed like work and could never compete with the images on the TV. Everyone else in my family were avid readers. I think maybe I have some undiagnosed ADHD or something because when I was younger I could only get a few paragraphs in before my mind wandered. I'd read a page or two without absorbing anything I read.

Anyway, enough of that, getting off topic.

Yes, that absolutely makes sense. I get flashes of visual memories in the back of my mind as well (I think that is a good way to describe what happens when I read as well).

I really like how you put this: “It is as if the rest of my mind is responding to the visual image as if it exists but the part of my brain that actually generates the visual image is not doing so.” I started this thread in part with the hopes that someone else would give me insight into how my own mind works. I still have goosebumps from reading that sentence. It is something that I am going to have to mull over for a bit. There is something essential there.

To your last point: I’m not sure that you are giving yourself the credit you deserve. My mind wanders when I read as well. It is one of the things that I like about reading. I see it as an aspect of making connections, and an essential part of the reading experience.

Give yourself permission to let your mind wander when you read, but if you go a couple of pages and think, “well fuck, what I was thinking about was interesting, but a) how does it connect to this story (maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t) and b) how far back do I need to reread?”

The more challenging the book, the more rereading I need to do, but the more rewarding that internal dialogue is for me. Science heavy science fiction is often a grind for me, as are books that fall under the postmodern and magical realism categories. But, those are generally also the most rewarding, because I like when my brain gets fucked with.

I’m reading one such book right now entitled A Memory Called Empire. It’s forced me to really slow things down, and there have been pages that I have read 4-5 times before being able to digest.

And then there are other books that make my brain feel like it has just gone to the dentist for a gum scraping. I find some authors’ syntax simply irritating (For you EU Star Wars fans - the Bane trilogy made me physically ill to read - as if my mind was scraping itself raw).

That is a less pleasant experience, but one that I force myself to do in order to better understand what my students, who are hesitant readers, feel like.

 

[sringwal]

I've picked up a few tricks for that over the years. I've got a book with tables for random adjectives, professions, identifying features for NPCs. Plus I do voices ... So I'm kind of a big deal

Exactly. I would use the AI to simply refine the tables of random lists in order to better fit what I was going for in the moment. “Hey, ChatGPT: here are 5 objects that Weebadeux might have in his shop of magical odds and ends. Create ten more unusual items that a hoarder of magical items might be drawn to acquiring and then putting up for sale. Come up with their listed price in gold and silver, and then decide how far down Weebadeux might be willing to bargain said prices if a player were to make a successful persuasion check. Keep in mind that Weebadeux is a little down on his luck and has three halfling children and that his wife just left him. Also, make three of the items practically useless, but attractive to that sort of person. Finally, come up with three catch phrases that he utters to customers, as well as himself when he is cleaning the store late at night.”

Or some such.

 

[sringwal]

What did ChatGPT respond with, you ask?

Weebadeux's Magical Oddities

1. Boots of Directional Confusion
   • Description: These boots change the direction you're walking in at random intervals, leaving you perpetually unsure of where you are or where you're going.
   • Price: 75 gold, 50 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 60 gold, 50 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: Can cause endless amusement or frustration, perfect for adventurers with too much gold or those who enjoy the absurd.
2. Mirror of Self-Reflection
   • Description: A mirror that shows the reflection of a person’s inner self—which is just an abstract, swirling blur of colors.
   • Price: 25 gold, 10 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 15 gold, 5 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: It's a profound reflection on the soul, even if it offers no real answers. Perfect for philosophers or those trying to look deeper.
3. Broom of Perpetual Sweeping
   • Description: This broom sweeps continuously, even if nothing needs sweeping. It will only stop if someone stands in its path.
   • Price: 50 gold, 30 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 40 gold, 20 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: It does the work for you, even if it never really stops—perfect for those with dust allergies or an overactive sense of cleanliness.
4. Horn of Uninspiring Sound
   • Description: When blown, this horn emits a sound so dull and uninspiring that it causes all nearby creatures to feel slightly disappointed in themselves.
   • Price: 10 gold, 15 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 7 gold, 5 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: A novelty! Can be used to demoralize enemies or start the world's least enthusiastic parade.
5. Amulet of Minor Discomfort
   • Description: This amulet causes a small, but persistent, discomfort in the wearer. It might be a pinch in the back, a cold draft, or an itching nose that never quite goes away.
   • Price: 30 gold, 20 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 20 gold, 10 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: A "quirky" item for those who enjoy a little bit of unease in their lives. Perfect for the cautious or strange.

Useless, But Attractive Items

1. Stone of Eternal Silence
   • Description: A small, smooth stone that, when held, makes absolutely no sound whatsoever.
   • Price: 5 gold, 10 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 3 gold, 5 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: It offers perfect silence, and who doesn’t want the quietest rock in existence? Completely impractical, but satisfying in an abstract way.
2. Candle of Never-Ending Drip
   • Description: A candle that drips wax endlessly, but never actually melts. Its wax pile just grows.
   • Price: 15 gold, 5 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 10 gold, 3 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: Endless wax! Perhaps someone could use it to create a wax statue... or just admire the dripping forever. Who knows?
3. Pouch of Ever-Expanding Bread Crumbs
   • Description: A pouch that, when opened, instantly begins producing an endless stream of bread crumbs. No matter how much you take out, it never empties.
   • Price: 20 gold, 10 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 15 gold, 5 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: For those obsessed with tidiness or those who want to feed birds wherever they go. There's no real use for it... but it’s a conversation piece.

Slightly More Useful, But Still Odd

1. Socks of Fire Resistance
   • Description: These woolen socks will never burn, no matter how hot the flames. However, they do make your feet perpetually sweaty.
   • Price: 40 gold, 50 silver
   • Bargaining Range: 35 gold, 25 silver.
   • Why It’s Attractive: Useful in fire-heavy dungeons or around dragon’s lairs. Who cares about a little extra foot sweat when your feet are fireproof?
2. Bag of Holding, But Just for Marbles

• Description: This bag can hold an infinite number of marbles—though no other items.
• Price: 50 gold, 30 silver
• Bargaining Range: 40 gold, 25 silver.
• Why It’s Attractive: Perfect for those who want to carry an endless supply of marbles...or perhaps use it as a display piece?

Weebadeux's Catchphrases

1. “A bargain like this comes once in a lifetime... or once in a lifetime of regrettable purchases.” (He uses this when he's feeling particularly desperate to sell something, but knows it's a hard sell.)
2. “You won’t find this anywhere else… because nobody would dare put it on a shelf.” (He uses this when trying to convince customers to buy his more useless items.)
3. “Don’t let your gold weigh you down, friend! Lighten your purse with something truly valuable... like a cursed spoon.” (He says this when he's trying to get rid of items with dubious practicality.)

 

[nycfan]

This is really fascinating to me because I am pretty much the opposite — I visualize in detail, to the point that my husband sometimes looks at me and asks me what am I flipping over in my mind.

 

[TarHeeledTexan]

I need to come back to this thread and read further, but I see nothing but gray in my minds eye, so to speak. But, my spatial memory is great. I know my way around places really easily, and I know where all of the hidden stuff is in my house. And, if my eyes are open, I can also easily visualize places, things, previous actions and events, manipulate shapes, etc. But close my eyes? Nothing but a dark gray fuzz with little flashes of light. I can try to visualize something with closed eyes, but I conjur nothing at all.

 

[Unc12003]

I have aphantasia as well and learned about it scrolling Reddit one day. As crazy as it sounds I had no idea that people could actually SEE things when thinking about them. It made me kind of sad at first knowing that most people can relive memories like that and I can’t. I think about it pretty often.

 

[finesse]

Does it relate in any way to the characteristics needed to be a high level bridge player? Is it more online now or do people still congregate in groups to play?

Out of curiosity, are you a bridge player. I basically quit playing about six years ago but was once pretty dedicated.

 

[finesse]

The weirdness for me is that I visualize things well but can't translate them to paper worth a damn. Otoh, I could to wood and such. Made me a pretty good carpenter that architects loved and hated.

 

[sringwal]

I found this video this morning. If you have 15 minutes and want to understand aphantasia better, check it out. In it, there are several core subjects, but the primary narrator is a guy with aphantasia who had a hard time when his mother died because he didn't process her death in the same way that his brothers did. In short, he felt like he let her go faster than he should have and didn't grieve to the degree that his brothers did. This hits hard for me, because I've found that I often lose connections with people faster than others do. I never really maintained any of my high school relationships once I got to college and only have maintained one really strong relationship from college. I also don't miss people in the same way that my wife, who is extremely visual, does. This is common for people with aphantasia.

 

[PTOHeel]

Fascinating topic and thread. The first picture in the OP popped up to my wife in facebook or instagram or something a couple of weeks ago. It led to a discussion where we discussed where we think we fall on the scale. I'm more towards the hyper- end and she's more towards the hypo- end of the spectrum. One example of this is we do the NYT spelling bee together. Coming up with words, I will look at the layout of letters and think about words while "looking" at the letters in my mind. So I can keep coming up with words without looking at the spelling bee image.

Unrelated, but on the topic of how different people visualize their environment. I mentioned in another thread that I was diagnosed with brain cancer a couple of years ago. I discovered the cancer from problems I was having with my vision. It turned out that the tumor in my brain was causing damage to one of my optical nerves. This damage has caused me to lose my peripheral vision in the upper right quadrant. The condition is called quadrantanopia. It's a nuisance in certain ways, but like most things, you deal with it and it becomes your new reality.

 

[superrific]

I figured this would be as good a place as any to talk about it. I hope this passes Super's "interesting topic" test, but - even if it doesn't - maybe someone else will find it interesting. Maybe there is someone else who will think "fuck, I have that to." Who knows.

Oh, it definitely passes that test. I haven't had a chance to look at this thread yet, but probably will sometime this weekend.

Also, for the record, I'm pretty sure your intro posts on this thread are longer (at least combined) than any post I've made on this board (and probably the old one too). Makes no difference to me either way, just noting it.

 

[sringwal]

Fascinating topic and thread. The first picture in the OP popped up to my wife in facebook or instagram or something a couple of weeks ago. It led to a discussion where we discussed where we think we fall on the scale. I'm more towards the hyper- end and she's more towards the hypo- end of the spectrum. One example of this is we do the NYT spelling bee together. Coming up with words, I will look at the layout of letters and think about words while "looking" at the letters in my mind. So I can keep coming up with words without looking at the spelling bee image.

Unrelated, but on the topic of how different people visualize their environment. I mentioned in another thread that I was diagnosed with brain cancer a couple of years ago. I discovered the cancer from problems I was having with my vision. It turned out that the tumor in my brain was causing damage to one of my optical nerves. This damage has caused me to lose my peripheral vision in the upper right quadrant. The condition is called quadrantanopia. It's a nuisance in certain ways, but like most things, you deal with it and it becomes your new reality.

That reminds me of something from this TedTalk.


she starts talking about it at the 4:00 mark - except the blindspot that she mentions is in the center - which makes reading a pain for a variety of reasons.

 

[PTOHeel]

That reminds me of something from this TedTalk.


she starts talking about it at the 4:00 mark - except the blindspot that she mentions is in the center - which makes reading a pain for a variety of reasons.

Yeah. That's really interesting. Even with just one quadrant being effected, my biggest issue, by far, is reading. I really like to read and my job requires a lot of reading. I've learned to cope with it and I can still read, just not as quickly as I used to. It's a real pain trying to watch a foreign film with captioning. I really can't keep up with the captions.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

On the topic of dreams, I woke up last night after having a pretty vivid dream. I started thinking, did I actually see what was happening or was my brain just telling a story?

I definitely had spacial awareness just like I do when thinking of the apple but I don't know that my experience was different than the experience of cognitively visualizing the apple and not actually seeing the apple.

Now I don't know if I actually see while dreaming or not. You may have just ruined dreaming for me. ;-)

 

[sringwal]

I've vacillated back and forth about that for the last several months. I'm still not certain, but I'm leaning heavily towards "I do visualize while dreaming." But welcome to the world of existential crises that I have gone through over the last three months as I've adjusted to this self-diagnosis.

 

[sringwal]

One more "fun" videos:

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

That reminds me of something from this TedTalk.


she starts talking about it at the 4:00 mark - except the blindspot that she mentions is in the center - which makes reading a pain for a variety of reasons.

That is interesting that she talks about binocular depth perception. I don't have that. Didn't learn that I didn't have it until I was in my 20's.

When an object is visible in both eyes, my brain only receives the signal from one eye. Both eyes are still being used for peripheral vision. I have tried to do exercises to gain (maybe regain?) stereoscopic vision but never really followed through. The belief decades ago was that if you don't have it you'll never regain it unless you happened to have it as a very young child. Now they have different opinions on brain elasticity. (I'll never truly understand what it is like to have stereoscopic vision. Just glad the 3d TV phase didn't last.)

I remember one time in elementary school they tested all of our vision. There was one "how many red dots do you see" which I got wrong. Since I had had a surgery on my eyes as a very young child, I just talked my way out of it so I don't think they contacted my parents.

Explains why baseball got a lot harder as I got older...

 

[TarHeeledTexan]

This is interesting because I do have very visual memories. I see the images in the back of my mind but can't physically see them if that makes any sense. It is as if the rest of my mind is responding to the visual image as if it exists but the part of my brain that actually generates the visual image is not doing so. I didn't know some people actually see things like the apple.

All of that said, I am different from you in that I am very visual and not language oriented. I'm embarrassed to say that I have never taken up reading as a hobby. Ever since I was a child, it always seemed like work and could never compete with the images on the TV. Everyone else in my family were avid readers. I think maybe I have some undiagnosed ADHD or something because when I was younger I could only get a few paragraphs in before my mind wandered. I'd read a page or two without absorbing anything I read.

Anyway, enough of that, getting off topic.

The first paragraph is a lot like me. I can’t actually see any images in my head, but as I’ve thought about it, I have a good memory of things I’ve seen, and I can manipulate invisible items in 3D. I could draw an accurate map of my house and include lots of info about what’s where.

But I can’t conjure any images in my mind at all.

Like some have noted, I read very fast and like very descriptive language, but if there’s too much dialogue, I’ll skim it or skip it all together.

I’m also a very visual dreamer. Usually not very emotionally oriented unless it’s pretty intense.

I asked my wife and daughter about the apple. My daughter can see a hazy apple, but my wife sees just dark gray like I do. Her spatial skills aren’t nearly as good as mine, though, and she can’t read fast, either.

Lots of ways to think!

 

[TarHeeledTexan]

snip

I’m reading one such book right now entitled A Memory Called Empire. It’s forced me to really slow things down, and there have been pages that I have read 4-5 times before being able to digest.

I read this a year or so ago and zoomed through it. I find if a book makes me read too slow, I will just abandon it.

 

[sringwal]

I read this a year or so ago and zoomed through it. I find if a book makes me read too slow, I will just abandon it.

I generally give myself a week to read a book, for that very reason (my wife can digest one over a series of months). I'm trying to slow things down with this one, probably in part because it is the first book that has challenged me since I learned I had aphantasia, and so I'm both reading, and thinking about how I read, at the same time.