As a 76 YO white Christian

[finesse]

to the discussion of Paul vs James I believe since Paul left Jerusalem and took the gospel to the gentiles that he is my priest and Faith is proven by my actions not actions prove my faith. The process is Faith comes first and the works follow. Love is the key, If I first Love then I should ought to want to show Love to others. The 10 commandments are not part of my life, I am called to a much higher standard of loving others. I AM NOT A JEW, I AM A GENTILE AND i HOPE TO BE ONE LIKE jESUS TOLD THE PARABLE ABOUT.
Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and he did so by being crucified to death he paid the price for every sin that was committed, iis being committed and will ever be committed. IT IS DONE. I simply need to do my best and be humble when I do my worst.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

First discuss Paul's bona fides in general. My Bible tells me Peter was the rock on which Jesus was going to build his church but none of Peter's teachings are in there. According to tradition, John the Baptist was prophesied. So was Jesus. So was many other things but not word one about Paul or even the least foreshadowing. All we know is that some rich influential Roman suckup comes up with a relatively unsupported story and goes from leading the persecution of Christians to leading Christians instead of people who actually walked and talked with Jesus for years.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

this appears to be the best answer so far.
thx

I just think that some people here clearly don't have the type of MAGA in their family or friends that I have. I'm not really close to any of them anymore because of our diverging worldviews but I do know these people well. Some are like the people described here - uneducated, at least somewhat racist, hold negative views of intelligence and education, brash, etc. On the education side, most in this category were either not very smart or just didn't have the discipline as a child to take education seriously so they had to build up this worldview that education is just a form of indoctrination (which is backed up by the media they consume) to explain their shortcomings.

But that doesn't come close to describing all of them. I have friends I grew up with who are intelligent and generally good people but have for reasons that initially escaped me are supporters of Trump. One of my brothers is that way as well. Most of them were led to that by their churches. If you talk to these people, you'll realize that they don't even hold any of the same facts about the world as we do. If you inquire further it is because they are now in this bubble of right wing misinformation. They, of course, see that Trump acts like an ass from time to time and dismiss it as just Trump being Trump but what they see of that is limited enough so that his behavior is easily dismissed. Meanwhile, the facts that are presented to them are carefully filtered and twisted so that they can maintain their worldviews.

I remember visiting my brother about 20 years ago and going through his DVR list of shows to record. It was all Fox News and fundamentalist religious things. Other than some sports I think that is all he ever watches. When that is your world, it is easy to become brainwashed - and I think he is brainwashed.

I do think these people (at least many of them) are fully in the cult. Trump somehow is able to do that to them. But he wouldn't be able to do that without a compliant media. I still hold out hope that these people will one day come to the realization that they were following a false prophet. That won't happen without some real suffering though.

Maybe I am just getting to the age where I am becoming cynical, but I just can't see how society can continue to function with the information bubbles that exist today. The world may move to more authoritarian rule not only as a consequence of the prevalence of information bubbles but as a response to them. Societies might move to a place where there is only one form of (mis)information as a response to the social unrest that is caused by having diverging information bubbles.

I'm rambling and getting off topic.

 

[4heels4evr]

First discuss Paul's bona fides in general. My Bible tells me Peter was the rock on which Jesus was going to build his church but none of Peter's teachings are in there. According to tradition, John the Baptist was prophesied. So was Jesus. So was many other things but not word one about Paul or even the least foreshadowing. All we know is that some rich influential Roman suckup comes up with a relatively unsupported story and goes from leading the persecution of Christians to leading Christians instead of people who actually walked and talked with Jesus for years.

1st Peter was told to leave and he did not.
2nd and most important was the Holy Spirit came to Paul and told him what to do and he DID it in spades by completely turning from a Christian hunter and killer and went to teach the gentiles they did not have to be circumcised to be a Christian.
and I agree that if we could observe the LAW then God would not have killed his son Jesus.
DO YOU THINK YOU COULD KEEP ALL THE LAW?

 

[finesse]

1st Peter was told to leave and he did not.
2nd and most important was the Holy Spirit came to Paul and told him what to do and he DID it in spades by completely turning from a Christian hunter and killer and went to teach the gentiles they did not have to be circumcised to be a Christian.
and I agree that if we could observe the LAW then God would not have killed his son Jesus.
DO YOU THINK YOU COULD KEEP ALL THE LAW?

When was Peter told to leave and by whom? What was their authority?

You're implying that Jesus wasn't able to predict that Peter had flaws and made a mistake in saying his church would be built on him? You really want to argue that? The story about Jesus being aware that Peter was going to deny him in Gethsemane says otherwise.

Besides it was Peter that Cornelius was sent to and Peter that had the vision that led to the opening up to Gentiles, iirc.

 

[chrissteel]

Something I believe is true is that when people that have a definitive ideology of how the country should be run should pick a political party that best matches that ideology and vote that way regardless of the individual. See Supreme Court. The same could be said of the single issue voter.

The idea that one should vote for the person and not the party is naivety in my opinion. Your local house member has very little role in what the house votes on as the speaker and key leaders make all the real decisions. Additionally, the parties have a way of managing their members to get what the party wants them to support anyway so again you would vote for you party to be in the majority even if you local guy is an idiot.
My real beef with republicans is why couldn't they do better in the primaries.

 

[4heels4evr]

When was Peter told to leave and by whom? What was their authority?

You're implying that Jesus wasn't able to predict that Peter had flaws and made a mistake in saying his church would be built on him? You really want to argue that? The story about Jesus being aware that Peter was going to deny him in Gethsemane says otherwise.

Besides it was Peter that Cornelius was sent to and Peter that had the vision that led to the opening up to Gentiles, iirc.

on the roof when he was hungry and had a vision where all the non kosher foods came down and he was told to eat but he refused

 

[finesse]

on the roof when he was hungry and had a vision where all the non kosher foods came down and he was told to eat but he refused

And now for the rest of the story...

This is why you read the Bible and not a passage. Finish the chapter where he goes to the house of Cornelius and come to the realization what the vision meant and how wrong he had been.



34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44&nbsp;While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45&nbsp;The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46&nbsp;For they heard them speaking in tongues[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version" title="See footnote b">b</a>] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47&nbsp;“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48&nbsp;So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

Something I believe is true is that when people that have a definitive ideology of how the country should be run should pick a political party that best matches that ideology and vote that way regardless of the individual. See Supreme Court. The same could be said of the single issue voter.

The idea that one should vote for the person and not the party is naivety in my opinion. Your local house member has very little role in what the house votes on as the speaker and key leaders make all the real decisions. Additionally, the parties have a way of managing their members to get what the party wants them to support anyway so again you would vote for you party to be in the majority even if you local guy is an idiot.
My real beef with republicans is why couldn't they do better in the primaries.

I agree with this to an extent. I think Trump is easily an exception to this rule because he is a serious threat to our republic.

I think if a Trump-like figure (with more leftist authoritarian tendencies) rose up on the left, I would absolutely 100% vote against that person. Supreme Court justices are not worth that.

 

[4heels4evr]

And now for the rest of the story...

This is why you read the Bible and not a passage. Finish the chapter where he goes to the house of Cornelius and come to threalization what the vision meant and how wrong he had been.



34&nbsp;Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35&nbsp;but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36&nbsp;You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37&nbsp;You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38&nbsp;how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39&nbsp;“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40&nbsp;but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41&nbsp;He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42&nbsp;He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43&nbsp;All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44&nbsp;While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45&nbsp;The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46&nbsp;For they heard them speaking in tongues[<a href="Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version" title="See footnote b">b</a>] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47&nbsp;“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48&nbsp;So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

thanks for the discussion and I will consider these texts and respond

 

[breepf]

thanks for the discussion and I will consider these texts and respond

If you're interested in better understanding the New Testament, at least from a scholarly standpoint, I'd suggest two resources: The Jewish Annotated New Testament and/or the Oxford Annotated NSRV Bible. I think that @TarSpiel, the resident religious studies professor, would endorse both texts.

Besides the notes on the text, which can do much to clarify ambiguities and commonplace misunderstandings, both texts come with clear introductory essays on a variety of issues related to biblical scholarship.

 

[4heels4evr]

My quick response would be the argument between Paul and Peter would be I agree with Paul that I can not observe the whole Law therefore if not for unmerited favor "GRACE" there is not hope for me. I will again reread the text and respond later...

 

[4heels4evr]

If you're interested in better understanding the New Testament, at least from a scholarly standpoint, I'd suggest two resources: The Jewish Annotated New Testament and/or the Oxford Annotated NSRV Bible. I think that @TarSpiel, the resident religious studies professor, would endorse both texts.

Besides the notes on the text, which can do much to clarify ambiguities and commonplace misunderstandings, both texts come with clear introductory essays on a variety of issues related to biblical scholarship.

thx, even though I amd 76 my plan is to continue to grow my knowledge of what Jesus really meant especially with this:

15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

teachers of the LAW

 

[BlueSteel]

This seems simple to me. Which candidate would do more to propagate the values of Christianity in our society? It isn't complicated. It's simply a choice. either harris is going to do more for Christianity or trump is. trump sucks and is mean but Christianity will grow under him and that is what's important Or, Her side would like to kill christianity altogether as a part of our society. Its the most elementary decision possible.

This ignorant, uninformed drivel is precisely why people around here think you are a fool. Move along please.

 

[BlueSteel]

Who is talking about banning prayer in schools? Any student who wants can pray in school. The only thing that's banned is school officials leading prayers, though the Supreme Court has been doing their best to roll that back as well.

Important caveat: In PUBLIC schools. The only thing that's banned is school officials leading prayers in public schools. There are thousands of private Christian schools (which my own children attend in fact) and these are certainly not under fire by Democrats. Callateroy seems to have no basic understand of what he's spewing here.

 

[uncjhodges]

Important caveat: In PUBLIC schools. The only thing that's banned is school officials leading prayers in public schools. There are thousands of private Christian schools (which my own children attend in fact) and these are certainly not under fire by Democrats. Callateroy seems to have no basic understand of what he's spewing here.

That last sentence is evergreen

 

[finesse]

Important caveat: In PUBLIC schools. The only thing that's banned is school officials leading prayers in public schools. There are thousands of private Christian schools (which my own children attend in fact) and these are certainly not under fire by Democrats. Callateroy seems to have no basic understand of what he's spewing here.

I'm shocked,I tell you. I'm shocked.

 

[nashcounty]

I'll stick with the gospel of John Lennon:

Life is very short, and there's no time
For fussing and fighting, my friend.

 

[TarSpiel]

Religion has directly or indirectly caused the death(s) of more people than anything else in the history of humanity. We would all be better off without it.

I don't think that's true. I think greed has caused more deaths...by an order of magnitude.

And famine, plague and heart disease have killed more, too. There's actually a long list...

 

[TarSpiel]

I'd rather remain low key here but he's one of the good ones.

He's definitely one of the good ones.

I'm trying to get a context for you without asking a question that would be too revealing, but were you around Saunders Hall in the years 2001-2007?

And yea, Shanny is a jewel of a person. I love him.

 

[Centerpiece]

We can work it out