Battle over Mandatory (aka “Entitlement”) Spending

Not being able to do the job you've chosen as a career isn't necessarily the same as not being able to work. And, not all people age the same. An extreme example are professional athletes. They may only play into their 30's, but go on to do other My mother-in-law retired from fairly stressful banking job and then worked for 5 or more years at a preschool.

I'm not saying that SS age should necessarily be higher than average life expectancy, but I think it should be raised.
Of course once you get past the age of 65, you’re generally going to have a harder to time finding an employer who wants to hire you (unless you’re applying to be UNC’s head football coach). And when there becomes a time where there a lot more 65+-year-old people trying to find jobs, it gets even harder. And that’s before factoring in how technology/AI will impact the job market. There are a lot of moving pieces to consider.
 
There are many people in the middle, upper middle and upper classes of my generation that didn't plan properly for retirement. For that specific subset, that is absolutely a personal failing, and I am indifferent to their plight.

But regardless of who falls in that group, social security benefits are generally recognized as sufficient even for those who 100% depend on SS for income.
 
There are many people in the middle, upper middle and upper classes of my generation that didn't plan properly for retirement. For that specific subset, that is absolutely a personal failing, and I am indifferent to their plight.

But regardless of who falls in that group, social security benefits are generally recognized as sufficient even for those who 100% depend on SS for income.
I’d reckon that those middle, upper middle, and upper classes of your generation also have a support system around them outside of SS benefits.

Let’s have the rich live on only $2,000 a month and see how they do.
 
Are you saying the SSA retirement age should be raised until at or after current life-expectancy? My mom retired at 68. She is about to turn 80. She was barely able to manage a HS class at 68 and no way she could have done it until she was 77.

And life expectancy from birth in the 1930s was skewed by much higher childhood mortality. People who survived to 65 even then could expect to live over a decade more, which was the majority of Americans (though a smaller majority then than now). As SSA charts indicate here:

IMG_5524.jpeg
That’s also an interesting factor to consider (people’s abilities to perform their jobs as they age). From what I have observed, it seems that most people can remain highly competent at their jobs through their 60s (though that is likely not the case with jobs that require manual labor). Obviously everybody is different. I have noticed fairly sharp declines in job performance with people who work past 70.

I have one law partner who is 80-years-old. He is about to retire. Frankly, he should have retired nearly 10 years ago. And he was considered by many to be one of then best lawyers in his practice area(s) in the state of NC.
 
I’d reckon that those middle, upper middle, and upper classes of your generation also have a support system around them outside of SS benefits.

If, by support system, you mean Pell grants, guilty as charged. But increasing SS benefits going forward makes it harder to implement those types of government programs for future generations.
 
If, by support system, you mean Pell grants, guilty as charged. But increasing SS benefits going forward makes it harder to implement those types of government programs for future generations.
I was more so thinking generational wealth.

Poorer SS beneficiaries are more likely to rent rather than own their home, for example. In our current time, that eats up the majority of the average monthly SS payment alone.
 
So how do people exist if they can neither physically do the work they have spent 40 years doing nor get because they are too old.

Let's have people whose income for tax purposes consists of over 50% invest income that should taxed at the usual rate for SS/Medicare. I believe there would then be adequate funds to fully fund those programs.
There is a cap for SS. Remove the cap and SS will be fine.
 
The vast majority of people in all generations aren't materially affected by generational wealth. The current policy issue is that, while inter-generational wealth has increased dramatically in the last 50 years, it hasn't really spread much to new participants.

The one "support system" that has affected my generation vs. younger generations is appreciation through home ownership. We tend to think of housing affordability and delayed home ownership as a current issue of shelter, but it's really more of a long-term financial issue for most households.
 
The vast majority of people in all generations aren't materially affected by generational wealth. The current policy issue is that, while inter-generational wealth has increased dramatically in the last 50 years, it hasn't really spread much to new participants.

The one "support system" that has affected my generation vs. younger generations is appreciation through home ownership. We tend to think of housing affordability and delayed home ownership as a current issue of shelter, but it's really more of a long-term financial issue for most households.
I’m not talking about your generation vs. younger generations. I’m talking about people currently receiving social security retirement benefits.

You made the the claim that there are plenty of upper middle class people in your generation who “failed to plan” for retirement and are living only on social security payments.

My contention is that these upper middle class social security beneficiaries likely have other supports around them. Poor social security beneficiaries do not.
 
We'll just have to disagree. There is no current credible support or plan for increasing social security benefits.

The emergent issue is how do we properly fund the system to support the currently legislated benefits for future generations.
 
The vast majority of people in all generations aren't materially affected by generational wealth. The current policy issue is that, while inter-generational wealth has increased dramatically in the last 50 years, it hasn't really spread much to new participants.

The one "support system" that has affected my generation vs. younger generations is appreciation through home ownership. We tend to think of housing affordability and delayed home ownership as a current issue of shelter, but it's really more of a long-term financial issue for most households.
To some degree yes. You speak from a very middle or even upper middle class point of view. Costs of buying a home are out of this world at this time unfortunately for first timers.

The problem stems a couple ways. You buy a nice house at 30. You retire 65. Are you selling the house to pay for livelihood? Where and at what cost will you move to.? Or are you planning as living in that house until death do you part? For poorer foks this isn't even a question.

Second you mention "support system" without factoring medical expenses. One of the leading causes of bankruptcy and perhaps foreclosure. And of course the medical bills pile up as the housing market has gone to sh*t and 4 years earlier you coukd have sold for 100K more.
 
Is there anything that those who benefit most from social security should have to do to save the program?

The answer always seems to be tax the rich more. From a standpoint of principle, when is it fair to ask those who will benefit the most to sacrifice?
People who have incomes that greatly surpass $176k are the ones who are benefiting the most from the current structure.
 
We'll just have to disagree. There is no current credible support or plan for increasing social security benefits.

The emergent issue is how do we properly fund the system to support the currently legislated benefits for future generations.
Focusing on maintaining the current system while the right is hellbent on eliminating the entire system is simply not good enough.

I’m attempting to change the conversation to one on which the left has better rhetorical footing. Perhaps not the purview of this thread, and you’re certainly right to say there isn’t credible support in Congress to expand benefits. That’s an indictment of the Democratic Party.
 
Of course once you get past the age of 65, you’re generally going to have a harder to time finding an employer who wants to hire you (unless you’re applying to be UNC’s head football coach). And when there becomes a time where there a lot more 65+-year-old people trying to find jobs, it gets even harder. And that’s before factoring in how technology/AI will impact the job market. There are a lot of moving pieces to consider.
I don't think 65 is as old as many want to portray it. There are plenty of people who are fully functional well into their 70's. On the subject of head coaches, Pete Carroll is 73.

Sure, there are people who may not be able to work, but we can address those as exceptions, not the norm, right?
 
But regardless of who falls in that group, social security benefits are generally recognized as sufficient even for those who 100% depend on SS for income.
I think you should disclose the qualifying conditions there. I can easily imagine situations, not all that unusual, where this would not be true.
 
I think you should disclose the qualifying conditions there. I can easily imagine situations, not all that unusual, where this would not be true.
avg is $1,800 a month I think
Not sure how you live on that in anything approaching an urban area-
 
I don't think 65 is as old as many want to portray it. There are plenty of people who are fully functional well into their 70's. On the subject of head coaches, Pete Carroll is 73.

Sure, there are people who may not be able to work, but we can address those as exceptions, not the norm, right?
I addressed people’s job performance capabilities as they age in a previous post (responding to a post by nyc).

But that’s also not necessarily responsive to the point I was making. While 65 may not be that old (and as someone about to turn 50, I certainly don’t want it to be viewed as old), trying to land a job at 65 or older – regardless of how capable that person is to perform the job they are seeking— is another story.
 
1. Whether the retirement age has or hasn't kept up with life expectancy is of zero relevance. Social Security was started in the middle of the Great Depression, in an economy that was but a generation removed from the Industrial Revolution. Of course that society couldn't afford to support retirees. We are now much richer.

2. As economists like to say, consumption is about choices. Because we are a rich country, we have the ability to finance a lot of consumption. One form of consumption is leisure time. Silly people like Zen think that the economy is solely about the accumulation of material wealth. It is not. A free society can choose non-work if it wants. People in European countries have more vacation time, generally speaking, than Americans -- and their governments allow it (this is why, by the way, cross-country GDP comparisons are faulty without adjustments). In Mexico, the workday is interrupted by a siesta, or at least it was 20 years ago when I did a lot of work with Mexico.

So the US can choose non-work in retirement, if it wants. We absolutely can afford it and it's not even close. Of course, doing so would require us to, you know, make sure the rich pay their taxes. You know, not electing corruptocrats like Trump who are trying to shut down tax collections on the very rich to the maximum extent possible.

There is no reason as a society we should have to raise the retirement age. We just have to make choices. Zen, how do you choose? Properly fund the IRS and collect the hundreds of billions of taxes that aren't paid? Or let the rich get away with tax evasion and make ordinary Americans work longer and harder. That is a choice in front of you. How do you choose?

3. Social Security has never been a take-what-you-pay system. Every generation has taken far more than what it paid. That's fine!! Again, that's what a rich country should do! Or can do, if it wants to. Artificial constraints like "we can't use general revenues to fund SS shortfalls," make no sense and serve only to distract people on the bottom line. I guess it also gives cover to the lie that lower-income Americans don't pay any "federal income tax" because SS is classified as something different, even though it is a federal tax on income and functionally indistinct from any other income taxes.

4. Social Security doesn't really cost anything. Generally, it finances expenses that would be paid by retirees' children if SS didn't exist. So it's more of a bookkeeping issue than most people think. It's simply a question of which bucket of capital to use to finance those expenses. This makes SS different than Medicare, which absolutely does induce the consumption of real resources because it pays for medical care.

I don't want to exaggerate this point. SS probably induces *some* consumption. There are old people, perhaps, who are able to throw a party for their grandkids' graduations who wouldn't be able to but for that income. That's a real economic cost. There are SS recipients who might trade in an old car for a new one a little more quickly than without SS. That's a real economic cost. For the most part, though, SS does not finance lavish consumption. Generally speaking, it simply reduces the financial liabilities of children for their parents, which seems like a good use of money.
 
1. Whether the retirement age has or hasn't kept up with life expectancy is of zero relevance. Social Security was started in the middle of the Great Depression, in an economy that was but a generation removed from the Industrial Revolution. Of course that society couldn't afford to support retirees. We are now much richer.

2. As economists like to say, consumption is about choices. Because we are a rich country, we have the ability to finance a lot of consumption. One form of consumption is leisure time. Silly people like Zen think that the economy is solely about the accumulation of material wealth. It is not. A free society can choose non-work if it wants. People in European countries have more vacation time, generally speaking, than Americans -- and their governments allow it (this is why, by the way, cross-country GDP comparisons are faulty without adjustments). In Mexico, the workday is interrupted by a siesta, or at least it was 20 years ago when I did a lot of work with Mexico.

So the US can choose non-work in retirement, if it wants. We absolutely can afford it and it's not even close. Of course, doing so would require us to, you know, make sure the rich pay their taxes. You know, not electing corruptocrats like Trump who are trying to shut down tax collections on the very rich to the maximum extent possible.

There is no reason as a society we should have to raise the retirement age. We just have to make choices. Zen, how do you choose? Properly fund the IRS and collect the hundreds of billions of taxes that aren't paid? Or let the rich get away with tax evasion and make ordinary Americans work longer and harder. That is a choice in front of you. How do you choose?

3. Social Security has never been a take-what-you-pay system. Every generation has taken far more than what it paid. That's fine!! Again, that's what a rich country should do! Or can do, if it wants to. Artificial constraints like "we can't use general revenues to fund SS shortfalls," make no sense and serve only to distract people on the bottom line. I guess it also gives cover to the lie that lower-income Americans don't pay any "federal income tax" because SS is classified as something different, even though it is a federal tax on income and functionally indistinct from any other income taxes.

4. Social Security doesn't really cost anything. Generally, it finances expenses that would be paid by retirees' children if SS didn't exist. So it's more of a bookkeeping issue than most people think. It's simply a question of which bucket of capital to use to finance those expenses. This makes SS different than Medicare, which absolutely does induce the consumption of real resources because it pays for medical care.

I don't want to exaggerate this point. SS probably induces *some* consumption. There are old people, perhaps, who are able to throw a party for their grandkids' graduations who wouldn't be able to but for that income. That's a real economic cost. There are SS recipients who might trade in an old car for a new one a little more quickly than without SS. That's a real economic cost. For the most part, though, SS does not finance lavish consumption. Generally speaking, it simply reduces the financial liabilities of children for their parents, which seems like a good use of money.
"There is no reason as a society we should have to raise the retirement age. We just have to make choices. Zen, how do you choose? Properly fund the IRS and collect the hundreds of billions of taxes that aren't paid? Or let the rich get away with tax evasion and make ordinary Americans work longer and harder. That is a choice in front of you. How do you choose?"

If it were that simple of a choice, and it we were guaranteed hundreds of billions, I would choose to fund the IRS to collect SS taxes.
 
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