Border walls are no longer racist

CRHeel94 said:
Want to really crack down on illegal immigration? Crack down on employers. Why doesn't that happen? Because the dirty little secret is that the US badly needs that cheap source of labor, of persons willing to do jobs that others won't do. Plus it’s more appealing to go after the brown people instead of the Americans.
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And those employers, whether it be a chicken processing plant or a commercial roofing company, are likely Republican campaign contributors. They can’t go after those folks.
 
ZenMode said:
"1. There is no border crisis. That's just fearmongering. I'm sorry that you have fallen so hard for it."

Of course there was, on multiple levels. One being the humanitarian crises involving people having to stand in line for dangerously long periods of time, exposed to heat, not having food and water, Mexico not being able to house/care for the high volume of people who traveled to the border, the CBP staff being overwhelmed by the high numbers of asylum seekers and the fact that people who are supposed to be patrolling the border not being able to patrol the border because they're helping process asylum seekers.
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That's a border crisis of YOUR own making. All of that would go away if people were paroled into this country while they await their asylum hearings. Or if the government would allocate more money to hire more ALJs so that the wait was far less.

It's ridiculous for you to claim that you're on the side of the poor migrants who are exposed to such dangerous conditions in Mexico when your guy created the Remain in Mexico project. The danger was created by YOU.
 
rodoheel said:
To be fair the main problem with the Maginot Line as a defensive structure was that there wasn't more of it. The Maginot Line was a great defensive fortification and the Germans only defeated it by going around it. If the Maginot Line had covered the border with Belgium as well they would have had a much harder time getting through it.
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Yes, but it wasn't a wall. It was much, much more than a wall. It was an entire defensive fortification 20 miles deep. The reason there wasn't more of it was that France couldn't afford it. They especially didn't want to try to build a huge defensive structure in the middle of the Ardennes. If they had built a wall there, the Germans would have knocked it down no problem.

Perhaps the analogy is inexact, but I was merely using it for the proposition that static structures can be easily evaded. As CRHeel put it, the ants found the sugar. If it had covered the entire border, the Germans might have relied more heavily on paratroopers. Or gone through the Alps. I mean, I don't know. I don't think anyone does, given that it's a complete counterfactual. Ultimately, it failed, which seems relevant enough.
 
superrific said:
You have no idea how border patrol works. You really think that the border patrol has people watching every inch of the border like a hawk, ready to spring into action at a moment's notice? Do you think the border patrol is like Batman (who would certainly decline this assignment as too big). What do you think happens? Something like this?
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No, and I never said any such thing. I think, like any job, there are specific responsibilities for different positions and it was reported that those who were supposed to be patrolling were helping process asylum seekers because the volume was so high.
Supervisor: "Oh, look, there's four guys with a ladder in sector 7G. It's 15 miles away, so we've got to get in the Bordermobile right now and get over there immediately."
Trainee: "What happens if, when we are driving, some other guys show up with a ladder over here."
Supervisor: "That can't happen. There's only one group with a ladder at any time. Fortunately the wall will slow them down enough for us to get over there."
Trainee: "But we're 15 miles away, and it only takes a minute to scale a wall with a ladder. By the time we get there, they will be long gone."
Supervisor: "We will find them, don't worry."
Trainee: "If we can find them in the brush, then why did we need a wall in the first place?"
Supervisor: "You're fired"
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Again... I never said, or implied, any such thing.
BTW, how well did Israel's wall work on October 7? That's a tiny fraction of the length of the proposed border wall, and it is monitored by an army that has no shortage of personnel because military service is mandatory in Israel. It hasn't even been up for 15 years it already failed catastrophically.

How about the Berlin Wall? That was a handful of miles wide. People tunneled underneath it, in the middle of freaking Berlin.

If walls worked, we'd see more of them. They don't. See also Maginot Line.
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I never said walls are perfect, but they are a deterrent and they do prevent people from bypassing the ports of entry while still getting into the US.

Your straw manning is strong!
 
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4thgenheel said:
the bad faith arguments and twisting of words by certain posters in this thread are really mind-boggling and childish.
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Instead of "childish", I would say "child-like".

My observation over a long posting career on the ZZL, ZZLP, and now here is that some folks need the discussion to be simple, for lack of a better phrase. The discussion must be centered around largely black-and-white, binary, a vs b differences and any introduction of nuance or context is avoided at all costs.

You can see this clearly in this thread.

It's just my opinion, but the inability to understand context/nuance and to operate out of context-based, nuanced understanding of particular situations is one of the major differences between the main parties and their supporters.
 
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superrific said:
That's a border crisis of YOUR own making. All of that would go away if people were paroled into this country while they await their asylum hearings. Or if the government would allocate more money to hire more ALJs so that the wait was far less.

It's ridiculous for you to claim that you're on the side of the poor migrants who are exposed to such dangerous conditions in Mexico when your guy created the Remain in Mexico project. The danger was created by YOU.
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Man, for someone who claims to be the pinnacle of reason, you seem to be anything but reasonable... you seem to be more dishonest than anything.

I never voted for Trump. I didn't ask millions of people to come to the US/Mexico border. I have no real control over what border legislation is/isn't passed. Even if I were the MAGA-est of the MAGAs, it would change nothing about the reality of the border crises.

There was a crisis at the border. It was acknowledged by CBP,, MSNBC, Fox, CNN, LA Times, WSJ, etc and it was because of the reasons I mentioned and probably more.
 
ZenMode said:
Man, for someone who claims to be the pinnacle of reason, you seem to be anything but reasonable... you seem to be more dishonest than anything.

I never voted for Trump. I didn't ask millions of people to come to the US/Mexico border. I have no real control over what border legislation is/isn't passed. Even if I were the MAGA-est of the MAGAs, it would change nothing about the reality of the border crises.

There was a crisis at the border. It was acknowledged by CBP,, MSNBC, Fox, CNN, LA Times, WSJ, etc and it was because of the reasons I mentioned and probably more.
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I was associating you with the political party you support. Using the word "you" was shorthand for "the political party that you support." That's not a matter of reason. It's just a matter of typing and reading on message boards.

And I do not believe for a minute that you never voted for Trump. And even if you haven't, you are planning to. That's obvious from your posting history.
 
ZenMode said:
No, and I never said any such thing. I think, like any job, there are specific responsibilities for different positions and it was reported that those who were supposed to be patrolling were helping process asylum seekers because the volume was so high. Again... I never said, or implied, any such thing.I never said walls are perfect, but they are a deterrent and they do prevent people from bypassing the ports of entry while still getting into the US.

Your straw manning is strong!
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You wrote:

"It's not that you can't find a way over/through a wall, but it takes time to get over/through and in that time, border patrol can get there and apprehend them"

So my post ascribed to you EXACTLY that position and nothing more. The sentence above explicitly asserts that the border patrol can and will respond to a perceived breach of the wall, no matter how small, and quickly enough to get there before the wall has been scaled. That is the position I was mocking.

Stop blaming me for your own idiocy. If you can't stand by your own assertion the first time it's challenged, maybe you should rethink whether you should make that assertions or others like it.
 
superrific said:
You wrote:

"It's not that you can't find a way over/through a wall, but it takes time to get over/through and in that time, border patrol can get there and apprehend them"

So my post ascribed to you EXACTLY that position and nothing more. The sentence above explicitly asserts that the border patrol can and will respond to a perceived breach of the wall, no matter how small, and quickly enough to get there before the wall has been scaled. That is the position I was mocking.

Stop blaming me for your own idiocy. If you can't stand by your own assertion the first time it's challenged, maybe you should rethink whether you should make that assertions or others like it.
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My position is 100% accurate. Walls are useful in certain areas, for example, the border of El Paso and Juarez. If not for the wall acting as a deterrent, and slowing would-be illegal border crossers, there would be 1000x more illegal border crossings in that area.

Does CBP catch EVERY illegal crosser? No. But having to scale or go through a wall/barrier absolutely helps CBP apprehend more than they otherwise would.

It's baffling that you're disputing something so obvious.

 
ZenMode said:
My position is 100% accurate. Walls are useful in certain areas, for example, the border of El Paso and Juarez. If not for the wall acting as a deterrent, and slowing would-be illegal border crossers, there would be 1000x more illegal border crossings in that area.

Does CBP catch EVERY illegal crosser? No. But having to scale or go through a wall/barrier absolutely helps CBP apprehend more than they otherwise would.

It's baffling that you're disputing something so obvious.

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You have no idea at all whether the Border Patrol detected the fence breach and responded to that. You have no idea at all whether the "slowing" made any difference whatsoever. And you have no idea if there's another breach a mile away that is porous because the US officials are here patrolling.

What I saw was people who can run fast getting through. And then a larger crowd of people, who seemed to be much slower, having to wait to try again. They didn't look so fleet of foot, so I'm really skeptical that "slowing them down" was a factor at all.

It's really hilarious that you think a single video of unknown provenance showing people easily cutting through the barrier and making their way into the country shows that your position is "100% accurate."
 
superrific said:
You have no idea at all whether the Border Patrol detected the fence breach and responded to that. You have no idea at all whether the "slowing" made any difference whatsoever. And you have no idea if there's another breach a mile away that is porous because the US officials are here patrolling.

What I saw was people who can run fast getting through. And then a larger crowd of people, who seemed to be much slower, having to wait to try again. They didn't look so fleet of foot, so I'm really skeptical that "slowing them down" was a factor at all.

It's really hilarious that you think a single video of unknown provenance showing people easily cutting through the barrier and making their way into the country shows that your position is "100% accurate."
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So, you truly believe that illegal border crossing numbers, in a high population border area, are unchanged by having a wall? Is that what you're claiming?
 
farce said:
And those employers, whether it be a chicken processing plant or a commercial roofing company, are likely Republican campaign contributors. They can’t go after those folks.
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There's a chicken processing plant was caught employing sixth graders earlier this year.
 
ZenMode said:
So, you truly believe that illegal border crossing numbers, in a high population border area, are unchanged by having a wall? Is that what you're claiming?
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Wall or no wall, look at the statics regarding how most undocumented people enter the country. Then explain how the wall stops those that arrive on airplanes and overstay their visas.
 
The worst part of all this bickering is that 90% of the people in this country who are actually worried about controlling the border would agree with the bill that was put forth, but here we are still fighting over walls and other such detritus because that's what Trump wants us to do. Be a part of the solution people.
 
ZenMode said:
So, you truly believe that illegal border crossing numbers, in a high population border area, are unchanged by having a wall? Is that what you're claiming?
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I have no opinion about walls in high population border areas. I don't know enough (note: reasonable people don't talk about that which they don't know). But of course that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about Trump's border wall. You said that walls work. You didn't say that walls work in high population urban areas. You said they work in general. And that proposition is laughable.

Again with the moving goalposts. Can't you folks just have a straight-up discussion? Here's a hint: stop saying stupid and crazy stuff that makes you spout idiocy to defend. If you do say stupid and crazy stuff, just admit it and move on. Doubling and tripling down on the stupid, whataboutism, moving goalposts -- I mean, come on. Don't you have any self-respect?
 
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